How accurate are times on Birth Certificates?

[Mike H.]

Hi,

I'm relatively new here so I wasn't sure where to list this question so I just picked Greenhorn.

Since we're told the exact Birth Time is important in composing an accurate Natal Chart, I'd be interested in possibly hearing from nurses, doctors, midwives and/or mothers who have been there when babies are/were delivered.

In your opinion is the time listed on Birth Certificate generally close (estimated after the fact) or exact as when the child first drew breath? :confused:

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Mike

[NicholasH]

im no mother or nurse, but i've done a lot of charts and it seems peoples birthtimes are always rounded to the 5 minutes(9:00, 6:15, 4:05, 3:55, etc..). according to my certificate i was born at 10:05pm. not 10:04 or 10:06.

[Stacey5271]

I'm no doctor or nurse either, but I also feel like their must be a certain amount of rounding. Their first responsibility is to make sure that mom and baby are well. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that they instinctively look at the clock when the birth happens, but that it's rounded in their minds if the clock is not digital (it can be hard to determine exactly which hash mark you're on if you're not close enough).

[R4VEN]

Yes, I agree, and the older a person is, the more `rounded' the time will be. My Mum always told me I was born at 4:20pm - but it may well have been 4:18, as no-one thought about astrology in them thar times. For my brothers birth times, she remembered 6am, or 7pm, which is an obvious round-about-almost.

A few years ago I was doing a natal chart for the daughter of a friend of mine. The time on the birth certificate was 3:58pm, which gave her an early in Capricorn ascendant. Capricorn?, thought I, she's too sociable and flighty for Cap ascendant. I quizzed the mother about accuracy, and she admitted that her daughter had probably actually been born a couple of minutes earlier - giving her a Sag ascendant, which was the girl to a T. So, even the times which look accurate can be a few minutes out, depending when nursing staff have a moment to record it.

[wintersprite1]

Something to keep in mind, AM and PM are only a keystroke of difference. My birth certificate has me listed as 9:32PM. That would have given me a Cancer rising, which still seemed to "fit" since I have a Cancer Moon. My mother was insistent that I was an early morning birth. Applying logic to the quandary, She pointed out that I was a scheduled C section and she had not gone into labor, spent the previous night in the hospital and they schedule surgery in the mornings.

Instead of seeing which rising sign "fit", it became more evident it was a morning birth when working with progressions and solar arcs.

TK

[RayAustin]

Something to keep in mind, AM and PM are only a keystroke of difference. My birth certificate has me listed as 9:32PM.

True, and of course my birth-time is rounded to 8:45 ... Hmmm.. pretty suspicious.

[natasa812]

Since we're told the exact Birth Time is important in composing an accurate Natal Chart, I'd be interested in possibly hearing from nurses, doctors, midwives and/or mothers who have been there when babies are/were delivered.

In your opinion is the time listed on Birth Certificate generally close (estimated after the fact) or exact as when the child first drew breath? :confused:

Dear all,
I work for 7 years as translator now, translating many birth certificates (from many languages and from many contries - me and my cooleagues). People always need a birth certificate - for a merriedge, university, membership in some organization, so, we are talking about MANY birth certificates. I NEVER saw at least 1 with a time like 16:57 or 02:34. It is always 17:00 or 02:30. Always adjusted to look EXACT (I think it must be a Virgo making this mess).
So, my opinion is that it is always estimated to look EXACT but it is not!
Natasa

[Astrologer4U]

Hmm, interesting, according to my birth certificate, I was born at 4:06pm and my daughter was born at 9:42am. I don't see any rounding in those two. I think there are some things to take into consideration however, when a person does not seem to match his or hers rising sign. I know someone who is a Gemini rising, but he is really shy and does not seem to talk much. However, he does have his times when he is playing jokes on people, and his times for goofing around like a Gemini rising. Still, he is not very sociable. I attribute that to his Moon is Scorpio.:cool:


Astrologer4U

[AquariusT]

These days they are very accurate. The older people sometimes they are way off. It used to be that the nurse would clean the baby, take care of the mother, write up the paperwork and write the time down, what it was then, at that time!. I was told this by a nurse in the 80's and found many clients birthtimes were way off.

I think today people care more about accuracy.

[iwonder]

I don't have time on my birth certificate, neither do any of my kids (born in US, but in different states). Do you have to order a special birth certificate? The ones issued by default don't list birth time.

[freedomlover]

I have a comment and a couple questions on this subject:

The comment: I was born in 1965 in USA - birthtime on birth certificate is 9:32am - another friend I know, born in 1961 in USA is listed as a 9:12am birth - so I don't think "rounding off' is as common in some areas as others. My daugters were born in 1983 and 1989 - and birth times are 9:32am and 10:33pm. My mother was born in 1936, and hers was listed as 7:10am, and it could have been rounded, but, hey, some people will be born at the 5 degree intervals exactly. My grandfather, born in 1900, in the same area as my mother, has no birth time on his birth certificate.

First question: so, bearing that in mind, I wonder if there is a rhyme or reason to which areas do round off the birth times? - for according to this thread, many have obviously experienced this.

Second question: Outside of astrology, what is the reason that it is important that the actual time of birth is noted? What other applications does it have?

FL

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Second question: What reason, outside of astrology,why is it important that the actual time of birth is noted? What other applications does it have?

I wouldn't think there was, which is why the grand majority of birth certificates don't have them, but I do wonder who came up with the idea to have it listed or considered at all.

[freedomlover]

Second question: What reason, outside of astrology,why is it important that the actual time of birth is noted? What other applications does it have?
I wouldn't think there was, which is why the grand majority of birth certificates don't have them, but I do wonder who came up with the idea to have it listed or considered at all.
(Sorry for the bad grammar - didn't realize how bad that had come out till you quoted me. :o:p)

So, is astrology the reason birth times began to be put on birth certificates?
It seems to me that I read somewhere that, at one time, physicians were required to know astrology. Does anyone have any more information on this?

[R4VEN]

I wouldn't think there was, which is why the grand majority of birth certificates don't have them, but I do wonder who came up with the idea to have it listed or considered at all.
Jolly good question, Kaiousei!!!

My ex-husband was born in Austria in 1944, and has a time (obviously rounded to the half-hour) on his Birth Cert. Mine, my siblings and my children's birth certificates do not have times on them.

Given that, in order to get my brother's birth time (he was born in 1957) I asked my mother, who at that time was sinking into Alzheimer's. After listening to her describing what she and my father had for lunch that day in December `57, before getting distracted, I then had to figure out my brother's birth time from her information (i.e. he could not have been born before 2:30pm) and my memory of my father coming home at 8pm or so left me with a window of possibility - given allowing for my father's traveling time to get home. Using the ascendant as a guide, I was left with 2 possibilities - Gemini or Taurus. Definitely Taurus - quiet, dependable, solid in body, family-oriented, etc, etc. And because I know my brother well, getting a reasonably accurate time was possible.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Well, yes. They were required to learn astrology, but that was WAY back in the day. I don't think astrology was the reason they put the times on the birth certificates. I mean, I'm only 19 and my birthtime isn't on my cert (even though I thought it was), I just know it from my mom telling me and letting me stay up that late all those years when I was younger.

[freedomlover]

Well, yes. They were required to learn astrology, but that was WAY back in the day. I don't think astrology was the reason they put the times on the birth certificates. I mean, I'm only 19 and my birthtime isn't on my cert (even though I thought it was), I just know it from my mom telling me and letting me stay up that late all those years when I was younger.


Yes, I understand what you are saying. But, I'm wondering if it wasn't one of those things that "survived" in the medical profession from the time when they did know that astrology was important. But they aren't aware of why they do it, it's just because "We've always done it that way." You must know some kind of tradition that has survived that way - it's still being done and nobody knows why they are doing it?:p

[iwonder]

As far as medical profession goes, I would think it is a matter of liability <grin> and all that record keeping for billing and just in case.

Always adjusted to look EXACT (I think it must be a Virgo making this mess).
Oh, no, Natasa :) Anyone but Virgo. Maybe Sagittarius or Pisces. Virgo recorded time would be precise to the 10th of a minute (just being reasonable - it is not possible to record it to the second :D )

[R4VEN]

OK, here's another question about accuracy of birth times, although not necessarily related to birth certificates.

My best friend was with her daughter as she was in labor on the day of that big new moon in Capricorn on Dec 27th last. Labor went on & on, baby `stuck', so a Caesarian was performed. My friend texted me at 7:35pm that her daughter had been given an anaesthetic in prep for a Caesar, and next day told me that baby was born at 8:02pm.

My question is (and perhaps I'll need some nursing staff here to answer this) if a Caesarian is begun at - say - 6pm, then when is it most likely the baby would have been removed from its mother? You see, my niece's mother always said that my niece was born at 6pm, but she also says that this was when she was wheeled into theatre for the Caesarian. I figure at least a half-hour would be needed before the baby `comes out'.

Anyone here know?

[AquariusT]

OK, here's another question about accuracy of birth times, although not necessarily related to birth certificates.

My best friend was with her daughter as she was in labor on the day of that big new moon in Capricorn on Dec 27th last. Labor went on & on, baby `stuck', so a Caesarian was performed. My friend texted me at 7:35pm that her daughter had been given an anaesthetic in prep for a Caesar, and next day told me that baby was born at 8:02pm.

My question is (and perhaps I'll need some nursing staff here to answer this) if a Caesarian is begun at - say - 6pm, then when is it most likely the baby would have been removed from its mother? You see, my niece's mother always said that my niece was born at 6pm, but she also says that this was when she was wheeled into theatre for the Caesarian. I figure at least a half-hour would be needed before the baby `comes out'.

Anyone here know?

A c section takes approximately 20 mins. Mine was longer, much longer. The doctor even said it was the longest one he had ever done. It was a Moon conj. Saturn and we made it tough for him. lol

However, I told everyone on the OR that I was an astrologer. So, they all yelled the time, like 9 people, outloud for me! lol :D

[holly]

If the birth time is not printed on the birth certificate, it may be recorded in the mother's medical records. If your mother is still alive and you have a good relationship with her, you can ask her to contact the hospital and obtain a copy of her medical records. That's what I did, and in the delivery summary, is my recorded time of birth.

It cost something like 20AUD, and your mum has to do it, becuase it is her medical record of giving birth.

[flea]

I have heard that those with mercury retrograde often can have the birth time recoded wrongly... kind of fits, and it does in my case... emergency caeser... but the time recorded was about 1.5hrs off.
FleaXXX

[R4VEN]

I have heard that those with mercury retrograde often can have the birth time recoded wrongly... kind of fits, and it does in my case... emergency caeser... but the time recorded was about 1.5hrs off.
FleaXXX
Fascinating stuff, flea!!

The brother about whom I talked in an above post has Mercury R.

Also, my oldest son was born with mercury Retrograde. When he was born I knew nothing at all about astrology - nothing - but when I went into early labour I put on my watch, turned on ABC radio (givers of `correct' time - we lived in the country, so no recoded time message on phone) and set my watch to the correct time. When my son `emerged', I lifted my wrist, looked at my watch, and corrected the nurse who announced his birth time incorrectly (at least, in my opinion!)

And no, before you ask, I have no Virgo planets, but my son was born with Virgo rising, so perhaps it was the Virgo energy on the horizon that morning which led me to being so uncharacteristically nit-pickety!!!

No offence intended to any Virgo readers!

[natasa812]

As far as medical profession goes, I would think it is a matter of liability <grin> and all that record keeping for billing and just in case.


Oh, no, Natasa :) Anyone but Virgo. Maybe Sagittarius or Pisces. Virgo recorded time would be precise to the 10th of a minute (just being reasonable - it is not possible to record it to the second :D )

I know that with a Virgo it would be precise but I could not help not to make some fun about Virgos and EXACTLY subject. By the way, I am Sagittarius / Pisces :) Not very precise indeed. ;)

Best regards
Natasa

[iwonder]

My question is (and perhaps I'll need some nursing staff here to answer this) if a Caesarian is begun at - say - 6pm, then when is it most likely the baby would have been removed from its mother? You see, my niece's mother always said that my niece was born at 6pm, but she also says that this was when she was wheeled into theatre for the Caesarian. I figure at least a half-hour would be needed before the baby `comes out'.

Anyone here know?

It depends. With emergency c-section, time between the drug is delivered and the actual procedure is shorter, about 20-30 minutes. With planned c-section, it is longer, doctors take their time. But once in the operating room, things happen very fast. 15-20 minutes, and you hear baby's first scream.

Many astrologers say that while knowing exact birth time is helpful, often it is not the time to produce a working chart. What is birth time? When the baby's head appears? When the whole body does? With the first breath of air? When the cord is cut? When? In case of c-section - the baby was supposed to be born later, so what is his astrological birth time?

Rectification may produce a different time than the one recorded. But who cares if this is the one that works. I haven't really seen it happen. But my mom does not remember exact time I was born, and I came up with it through rectification (actually, still confirming it). It could be different from the hospital record.

[RayAustin]

Many astrologers say that while knowing exact birth time is helpful, often it is not the time to produce a working chart. What is birth time? When the baby's head appears? When the whole body does? With the first breath of air? When the cord is cut? When? In case of c-section - the baby was supposed to be born later, so what is his astrological birth time?


I think when the baby is pulled out of the womb (cord cut or not), that's when the baby is 'born', since its no longer inside the body.

Ray:)

So my birth-time, perhaps I'm really born 20-25 minutes before the recorded time? Who knows.. *sigh* :) I'll have to find out more about rectification.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I think when the baby is pulled out of the womb (cord cut or not), that's when the baby is 'born', since its no longer inside the body.

The tradition is that the baby's first breath is indicative of the moment it's born. That being the first time the baby exchanges and mixes with the energies of the outside world. First impressions.

[RayAustin]

The tradition is that the baby's first breath is indicative of the moment it's born. That being the first time the baby exchanges and mixes with the energies of the outside world. First impressions.

Yea, I agree, and most likely those things would happen simultaneously.
R

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Most definitely! I just wanted to put out there what the traditional view of it was. Considering a big argument against astrology is the accuracy of birthtimes and the question "When is a child technically "born"? When a nurse says they are?" No. When they take their first breath.

Gah, skeptics. Hehe.

[RayAustin]

Most definitely! I just wanted to put out there what the traditional view of it was. Considering a big argument against astrology is the accuracy of birthtimes and the question "When is a child technically "born"? When a nurse says they are?" No. When they take their first breath.

Gah, skeptics. Hehe.

I know.. and I can just imagine me have being born 20 minutes to a half hour earlier (I was born by C-section), a nurse looking at the clock when I'm in my mom's arms and dressed with a little hat on and THEN putting down the time! It'd be just my luck!

Ray :D

[J.Lily]

Hi, I am a nurse- I can tell you not all times are correct even in this day and age.- Unfortunatly if you do not try to explain the significance and have someone who really cares about this like an astrologer check the time (the first breath or inSPIRation or LIFEspirit) You are gonna be off and even if you are off as little as 4 minutes this renders the chart unfortunatly-"void" this is where rectification comes in handy. I personally had mine rectified and I have a different ASC in comparision to what my Birth cert. says yes off by minutes. My brother was born in the early AM lost his birth cert and got another one that then read PM--People in general do not care about the significance of time recorded.
I can tell you I was very careful with finding out my own kids and when I worked in L&D, for other moms. I Cared about this signifacance--Because we know here it is a significance. The docs unless they are into Astrology do not care about the time recorded. They're job is to care about mom and baby. Hippocrates the father of medicine- practiced astrology and in the far past doc's were knowledgeable about the influence of the moon for example-I do not know one Doc who takes this into account now.(if they do they keep it secret)
J.Lily (I am really a Cap rising can you tell)

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Hi, I am a nurse- I can tell you not all times are correct even in this day and age.

Hey J.Lily, that's really cool to know. Glad they at least somewhat dependable. ;)

[Inside Out Orange]

Hi, I am a nurse- I can tell you not all times are correct even in this day and age.- Unfortunatly if you do not try to explain the significance and have someone who really cares about this like an astrologer check the time (the first breath or inSPIRation or LIFEspirit) You are gonna be off and even if you are off as little as 4 minutes this renders the chart unfortunatly-"void" this is where rectification comes in handy.

Fully agreed.

My daughter's birth was difficult requiring 3 midwives to pull her out. I don't know the exact details but I think in another era she would have been still born but they rushed her off out of the room and put her in a machine that ensured she was breathing. A few minutes later I was able to go out and pick her up before bringing her in for her mother to see.

After all that drama, the medical staff then did their note details, discussed it among themselves and recorded the birthtime as 12:20pm. As someone knowing the astrological importance, I know, because I looked at my own watch that it was actually 12:24pm. That said, I can't guarantee at which moment she took her first breath because she was out of the room so even I could be wrong with that.

With my own birthchart ... I have a recorded birthtime of 10:05pm that gives an ascendent of 2Tau05. But if it's wrong by just a couple of mins either way it becomes 1Tau03 for 10:03pm out to 3Tau07 for 10:07pm ... It's a big swing when you start looking at what effect Pluto may (or may not be) having at the moment with a trine aspect from Capricorn. Potentially the trine could have started last March with the early ascendent, or be about to happen this March for the latter. Big difference for a rounding error of 2 mins either way.

That's the 'trouble' with living outside of the tropics. I'm only in England and if I'd been born in the middle of the day when Scorpio was on the horizon, it takes 6 minutes to go one degree. In the Southern hemisphere it's the opposite way around (Aries/Taurus long - Lib/Sco - short).

And on a simple physical note ... bear in mind that the accuracy of clocks and watches it's easy for them to get out by a couple of mins without people noticing.