Black Sun ?

[Orsoblu1]

Hi all,
please does anyone heard about the black sun in the natal chart ?
I know about the black moon / lilith, but I cannot find any information about the black sun and his interpretation and how can you calculate its positision.
Can anyone help me?
thank you,

:confused:

Ob1

[starlink]

Hello Orsoblu, welcome to the forum. No, there is no such thing as the black Sun, at least not that I am aware of, so dont worry. Black Moon is also something you dont have to really know about unless you are very advanced in astrology. Just start with the very basics, that way you can increase your knowledge step by step. There are basic natal explanations to be found in our Education Board. Have a look!

Cheers, Starlink

[wilsontc]

Orso,

Normally we require that everyone posting a new posting give some astrological interpretation with their posting, but since your posting is about something no one knows about, I'll "let it slide" this time! :D In the future, when you post an astorological request about something in your chart, make sure to also give an astrological interpretation or, at least, an astrological "guess"! :D

I, like star, have never used the Black Sun and have no idea how to use it in astrology. But I did find something about it online:
Black Sun

The Black Sun is a mathematical point that corresponds to the position of the Sun when it is at Aphelion (that point in its apparent orbit when it is farthest from the Earth).

Sunnily,

TIm

[starnoud]

I see Starlink is Dutch. She ( ? ) could have known better.... Because in her and my country there lives a certain George Bode.... best astrologer/writer I have ever experienced. He wrote a book about the Black Lights a long time ago. For some reason this 'stuff' is difficult for many people to understand or to accept or whatever. Unfortunately this beautiful book (I bought it at De Slegte, just a note for Starlink) is not to be found easily i guess.
Anyway, the Black MOON is VERY important [Off topic comment. Moderator]To be a bit specific: the Black Moon is simply ruler of Capricorn. Saturn is not.
This is and will be a shock for many astrologers and students but i can tell ya this: I am studying charts for 15 years now, and have always used Lilith the Black Moon (as given at astro dot com , although i calculate a corrected BM as well) and what I personally found: Lilith as ruler of Capricorn does make sense. I mean, I would dare to do some kind of funny test to see what makes more sense, Lilith or Saturn as ruler of Capricorn and therefore also interpretting the House(Cusp) that is in Capricorn. Maybe nice to start : look at people with Ascendant Capricorn and see the direct meaning of Lilith in those charts.
Well, to not make it too long here, something about the Black Sun:
Black Sun is in aprox 12 or 13 Cancer, it moves very slow so its been there for hundreds of years. We all have the Black Sun in say 13 Cancer. As with the Black Moon axis (Black Moon_____Priapus), also the Black Sun is about a polarity, an axis: Black Sun in 13 Cancer ________the Diamond in 13 Capricorn. Check it out, and you will be amazed (by finding out that historical people have Diamond conjuncts or themes). I wont say that I could easily explain this astrological 'mechanism' but I could try a bit. Since I am not afraid to make mistakes lol , just kidding.... here we go:
Look at our Solar system as 'a complete system', ok. It's got an 'opening' to what is 'outside', to other systems, to space, to the universe, to god.
This opening, you can imagine, will be the place where new energy enters. The Black Sun therefore has something to do with the skill of IMPROVISATION, for example. It is a very dynamic, fresh , 'young' energy. Vitalising, thats the word. (forgive me I am just Dutch looking for the right english words always, it is kinda tiring)
So the Black Sun is about
- new
- vitality
- blanc, not filled in
- democratic ! (since we all have the same Black Sun...)
- being absolutely free of restrictions, playtime ! (jazzmusic I would say)
- for you to think of other themes related to this energypoint where we still are able TO BE AMAZED (like how one sometimes feels seeing the incredible overwhelming hugeness of a sky full of soooooooo many starsssssss)
- yes, SPONTANITY too

Where the Diamond CAN be reached,fullfilled or so.... but it WILL take TIME (I see a connection with Saturn there). Our individual Diamond is only gonna shine (beautifully of course) when we become aware of things related to the house it is in or whatsoever.

Perhaps this is enough for now. Hope you can enjoy it. Thanks.:sunny:

[starlink]

I see Starlink is Dutch. She ( YES, I am a she) could have known better.... Because in her and my country there lives a certain George Bode.... best astrologer/writer I have ever experienced.

Starnoud, I am Dutch but have not lived in Holland for over 40 years so I haven't got a clue about what goes on there astrologically apart from Karen Hamaker Zondag who's books I all have. I do however remember "De Slegte".
Surprised it still exists!

Many newcombers in this Forum have very little knowledge about Astrology to begin with, so in the light of that (Greenhorns lounge is for strict beginners and for those who have not given own interpretation in other forums on their own questions) I thought it wise, to let them know that to start looking at the Black Moon right at the beginning of their studies, is not advisable no matter how essential you might think this is. When you start with astrology there is enough to learn about the basics.

To be a bit specific: the Black Moon is simply ruler of Capricorn. Saturn is not.

Now, if you state a bit furtheron that this is just your own experience:I wont say that I could easily explain this astrological 'mechanism' , dont you think that your are doing the same thing you are telling us not to do ?, giving a "false" (originally written by you but deleted by me) advise? Saturn not being the ruler of Capricorn is what you think, not what is generally accepted in traditional, nor modern astrology. So please just state that you think it is so, not telling members that Black Moon (lillith) is simply ruler of Capricorn.

Why dont you start a thread about the Black Moon in this Forum explaining why you think this is so? You seem to know a lot about it and it would be interesting to all of us.
Groeten, Starlink

[starnoud]

to start looking at the Black Moon right at the beginning of their studies, is not advisable no matter how essential you might think this is. When you start with astrology there is enough to learn about the basics.


I see .... the basics..... and anything ruling Capricorn, and therefore having control over one or two houses, should be considered what exactly?

[deleted request to moderator which should have been PMed not posted - Moderator]

[starlink]

Please reconsider.
Starlink

[piercethevale]

I see .... the basics..... and anything ruling Capricorn, and therefore having control over one or two houses, should be considered what exactly?

Please unsubscribe me from this forum, thank you.

Starnoud...don't go! I found your post to be most interesting.
I know from experience how uncomfortable some of these forums can be insofar as trying to promote new ideas...why don't you give it a try awhile longer.
I have my own theory that Capricorn and Pisces are ruled by the former planet now known as the 'Asteroids'...and I agree with you that 'Lilith' is connected to Capricorn...possibly 'Exhalted'!
Again...please stick around!
...and thanks for the info on the 'Black Sun'...I've been trying to get the info on this!
Sincerely, ptv.:(

[astrologer50]

I agree with Starlink, its important to get the basics first before looking at astriods and specs of dust.

There is a good Education Forum on here, plus loads of people willing to help. I have sent you PM with some useful info...;)

[piercethevale]

...but then again...could Orsoblu1 possibly be refering to the Black Sun/Kochab ??? ...that is something altogether different.
I collect Sun kochinas...Tawas...and I acquired a Dark/Black Sun kochina not too long ago and placed it on my altar with the Tawas.



Kochinas!!!!

[piercethevale]

I did some checking with a star map and found that Kochab is a star in the 'bowl' of Ursa Minor...and as near as I can est. it is apprx. in line with 7* Libra.
Now what made this discovery and assumption of degree so very intriguing is that when I looked up the Sabian for the 7th degree of Libra I found that the Keyword for this degree by Rudhyars definition is "Guardianship"...how very intriguing as Kochab is referred to as "[I]one of the 'Guardians' of the Pole Star" i.e. the star Polaris...hmmmm!!???!!

ps...also, it may be of interest that Arcturus, referred to by Edgar Cayce in a reading as being the Star souls pass through between incarnations, is at apprx 6* Libra...

[starlink]

I know from experience how uncomfortable some of these forums can be insofar as trying to promote new ideas...why don't you give it a try awhile longer.


Hi Pierce. Well I told Starnaud to start a new thread: Why dont you start a thread about the Black Moon in this Forum explaining why you think this is so? on this as he is obviously more knowledgable than a Greenhorn, so I find his reaction a bit abrupt. Too bad.

[RockFish]

I think trying to promote new ideas is very nice.

Trying to shove them down other people's throats as the ultimate truth is not. Particularly without any decent explanation apart from "makes sense to me". Well, Saturn as Capricorn ruler makes sense to me. Now what?

New ideas + social aptitude = Great Debate.

New ideas + Arrogance = No Audience. :cool:

[piercethevale]

I think trying to promote new ideas is very nice.

Trying to shove them down other people's throats as the ultimate truth is not. Particularly without any decent explanation apart from "makes sense to me". Well, Saturn as Capricorn ruler makes sense to me. Now what?

New ideas + social aptitude = Great Debate.

New ideas + Arrogance = No Audience. :cool:

...Now What?? ...well that's one more vote for that 'camp'...that's what!!:p

[aquarius7000]

Ok, guys.

Do you realize that we are derailing poor Orsoblu's thread? If you want to continue a discussion on social attitude - astrological input => posts will have to be moved to a new thread.

Now getting back to the Black Sun, does anyone have any information to share?I read about the Black Sun many moons ago, but have to admit that I never really bothered to enlighten myself on it any further. I will have to see, if I can find anything in my books or notes.

:)AQ7

[piercethevale]

Ok, guys.

Do you realize that we are derailing poor Orsoblu's thread? If you want to continue a discussion on social attitude - astrological input => posts will have to be moved to a new thread.

Now getting back to the Black Sun, does anyone have any information to share?I read about the Black Sun many moons ago, but have to admit that I never really bothered to enlighten myself on it any further. I will have to see, if I can find anything in my books or notes.

:)AQ7

I'm still wondering which of the two possible refs. to a Dark/Black Sun Osoblu is asking about...that of the Aphelion or that which is associated with Kochab.

...Andiamo mi amica!!

[Claire19]

Hi all,
please does anyone heard about the black sun in the natal chart ?
I know about the black moon / lilith, but I cannot find any information about the black sun and his interpretation and how can you calculate its positision.
Can anyone help me?
thank you,

:confused:

Ob1

I have practised astrology for many many years and I have never heard of the Black Sun. I would forget about it. Not valid. I dont even use Black Moon Lilith.

[starlink]

...that of the Aphelion or that which is associated with Kochab.

Dear Pierce, I think you are way too clever for me:) Never heard about these terms (shame....), maybe because I focus on simple natal astrology and no research into other things like Black Sun, Lillith, asteroids etc. I will see what I can find in the Internet and our own forum about fixed stars etc. and then hopefully understand what you mean next time.

Cheers, Starlink

[piercethevale]

Dear Pierce, I think you are way too clever for me:) Never heard about these terms (shame....), maybe because I focus on simple natal astrology and no research into other things like Black Sun, Lillith, asteroids etc. I will see what I can find in the Internet and our own forum about fixed stars etc. and then hopefully understand what you mean next time.

Cheers, Starlink

Well, the Kochab biz. is pretty occult and esoteric...in fact about as much as those two terms get.
The 'Black Sun' kochina in my photo above is made by a Hopi woman who had a vision of it sometime back...apparently she isn't the only member of her tribe that has had this vision or one quite similar as of late.
[I assume that you know that the kochina is unique to the Hopi tribe...[I assume you know that these people do rites to the Sun and 'vision quests', of a type, hopefully during this 'quest' they 'See' the sun take human like form and thus they create these Kochinas as repilcas of what they 'saw'.]

...and then there's a rather 'far out' story about something called the 'Vrill Society' which gets into Hitler and all his studies into the spiritual occult knowledge...very strange tale that gets into UFOs and such. [but then I did know a Man who worked at Area 51 doing reverse engineering of, 'foreign aircraft', let us say.]

...I had a vision of this 'Black Sun' one day about 4 or 5 years ago and having had 'Tawa' visions the year before I pursued the understanding of what it could mean...[I had started doing Sanskrit/Hindu Surya [Sun] Mantras/Pujas back in 2003 when I needed extra spiritual protection. [I was dealing with some very dark and malicious individuals]...soon afterward a fellow moved in next door to me with the name of Suryakant [Ray of the Sun], given to him by his Swami, he had the other mantras I had been seeking and had prayed for assistance in finding...he also gave me a huge 'Leg Up' in astrological undersanding...most esp. of Rudhyarian technique...then I found the 'Black Sun' kochina in town near here at a Native American store where I had puchased a couple of Tawa Kochinas [one of which is also in the photo above...as the other two above are 'Tawa' kochinas]
Anytime I get visions, and I do have the natal astrology to provide that proclivity, I know they are important messages from my 'Higher Self' and they are usually followed by events of symbolic and of a sychronistic nature which validates the vision...so, I feel there is something about this Kocab biz...that very much deserves a good investigating!...and speaking of 'symbolic sychronisticity the biz. about my figuring Kochab to be at apprx.7* Libra and that 'Guardian' thing, I mentioned in my earlier post, is just such an example.


here's a link to the 'Vrill' thing...

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_vril05.htm

[Orsoblu1]

Hi all,
thank you very much for your contribute to my post.

There was a person that told me I have black sun near my natal sun in my house of work, I wanted to know more and that's why I post the thread,
but I admit that I didn't know anynthing about it.
I'm sorry for that, and your discussion now is over my capacity at the moment. Please excuse me.

From the other part, I'm glad this discussion is become so instructive for all us.

Thank you all,

ob1:)

[piercethevale]

Hi all,
thank you very much for your contribute to my post.

There was a person that told me I have black sun near my natal sun in my house of work, I wanted to know more and that's why I post the thread,
but I admit that I didn't know anynthing about it.
I'm sorry for that, and your discussion now is over my capacity at the moment. Please excuse me.

From the other part, I'm glad this discussion is become so instructive for all us.

Thank you all,

ob1:)

Orsoblu, if your Sun is nowhere near the 7th degree of Libra then I would assume they meant the Aphelion...

...if you live anywhere near Caeserta or Naples say hello to my cousins for me...Ciao, Amica!

[ladylemnescate]

if anyone knows where i can find bode's books let me know!!!

here's why i wanna know:
lilith is conjunct my true node
panacea conjunct uranus
okyrhoe conjunct my neptune

& if the black sun
[[[best info i've found, btw: http://www.horusset.com/RIKB/bsastro.htm ]]]
is indeed at 13 in cancer, then it is conjunct my urania
also: natal sun, hekate, chiron, jupiter


AND as far as that lilith ruling capricorn theory goes--- i want to talk about it! i'm capricorn rising- conjunct saturn. (neptune and uranus are in the 12th house, not too tight but i consider it highly relevant because my natal sun is exactly opposite uranus. :)


anybody inclined to follow that link will see a black sun 'feast day' is june 29th- my birthday. that's when it enters into libra, which is where my moon sits(nine degrees.. my 9house cusp is 8deg. in libra) - not to mention, all this is trine my node/lilith (in aqu.1) and venus (in gem.5) - grand trine :)


FROM THIS YOU MIGHT GLEAN HOW VERY VERY INTERESTED I AM.
I REQUIRE MORE INFORMATION!!!!

[ladylemnescate]

interestingly... waldemath in transit is conjunct my ascendant as i research...


<3

[Inconjunct]

Black Sun, Black Moon - what is with all this? Aren't there enough planets without making ones up?

Actually I think I know what this is about. It's about what one poster here called so very aptly "special snowflake syndrome". Having Capricorn rising is - well - it's a bit boring isn't it and doesn't make you stand out enough. So let's make up some planets, and chuck in some asteroids and maybe a bit of trans-Neptunian space junk suddenly I have Juno conjunct Lilith in Scorpio in a grand cross with Pholus and Sedna which is like rilly dark and interesting and deep, man.

[Fulcrum]

Resurrecting an old thread here to share a bit of information I found pertaining (hopefully) to the subject at hand.

That information is here (http://www.horusset.com/RIKB/bsastro.htm), if you don't mind reading a lot of stuff that to my untrained eye looks like Golden Dawn patois, filled with Hebrew symbolism and naming that frankly made my head spin around on my neck. I'll try to summarize, but first I have to quote the man himself (mods please note that he provides no copyright information on his page):

Mystic and psychoanalyst Carl Jung wrote about the Black Sun... in his alchemical works. The psychiatrist and pioneering LSD therapist Stanislav Grof relates an anecdote of a client who spontaneously experienced a vision of the Black Sun during a session of holotropic breathing. He subsequently associated the symbol with the "core self" of the client, the hidden radiance underlying the "manifest sun" or ego. The alchemist Jean Dubuis, in a lecture before the Philosophers of Nature stated that "this black sun of Saturn is the one that emits all the mystical influences of Saturn. And at that time chances of contact with eternity are maximum." This is the meaning behind Crowley's reference in the Book of Thoth: "According to an ancient tradition, the sun is also black."

Contact with the Black Sun is associated with the experience of burning away the dross of the personality, leaving the gold or essential nature of the first matter.

Special emphasis is paid to Saturn in the article: the reason being that if we regard Saturn's orbit as elliptical, and if we know that the Sun is one of the foci of that ellipse, then there must be a second focus in order for Saturn's path to be an ellipse. The Black Sun is that second focus. While all the planets except for maybe Venus have a second focus defining its path through the heavens, Saturn's is the only one outside Earth's orbit. (Actually, the only one easily calculated; according to the article, the outer planets orbit our solar system's center of mass, or barycenter, and finding that and then a second focus to define an elliptical path seems to have proven cumbersome.)

The guest poster above is partly correct that the Black Sun occupies a position that appears to be fixed, but according to the article he's 180 degrees out of phase according to the article: it was at 3 Capricorn when the article was written. Of note here (the guest failed to touch on this) is that it is at that position when viewed from a heliocentric standpoint. Its counterpart on that axis, the Diamond, would then complete the axis at 3 Cancer. And again, if you were standing on the surface of the sun, it wouldn't look like it's moving the way the other celestial bodies do (it does move around the ecliptic, but at a rate of 1°52' a year; it takes twelve thousand years to complete an orbit, so you'd get a little bit sweaty, standing there on the surface of the sun).

From a geocentric standpoint, it seems to move in a manner similar to the way I understand the Vertex to move, albeit that the Vertex moves windshield-wiper-like in traversing the 5th through 8th houses (correct me if I'm wrong here) and the Black Sun moves windshield-wiper-like between two points on the ecliptic: approximately 16 Pisces and 19 Libra. It tends to move slower as it approaches either of these two extremes, and around 7 June turns retrograde in Pisces. It picks up speed, whipping through Capricorn and Scorpio in a matter of four or five days (22-26 June, during which it reaches aphelion with Earth), slows down again, and turns direct in Libra on or about July 11. Its direct motion is considerably slower: it spends approximately a month each in the last half of Libra, Scorpio, and Sadge; then two months each in Capricorn, Aquarius, and roughly the first half of Pisces before turning retrograde again.

So far the only bit of Black Sun interpretation I was able to find regarding its astrological significance was that alchemy-speak in the quote about it burning away the impurities in order to allow our true selves to shine. I haven't seen the Bode book the guest mentions, but I take it that the guest's interpretation of the Black Sun (q.v. the fourth post in the thread) follows on from Bode's.

EDIT: this article from Astrotheme.com (http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology_planets.php) identifies the point in question as existing at 13 Cancer, and gives it a name: Dionysus. Now I'm not at all certain which is the Black Sun and which is the Diamond... and so far I've found nothing about interpreting the Diamond.

Back to the mines then...