Combustion and conjunction

[barbh]

I was wondering about the upcoming Sun Mars conjunction on Dec 5th. One might say that its a good time to do Marsy things, but if Mars is combust, then wouldn't it be a bad time? If combustion means weakened, this is a very bad time for Mars, and to do mars things, in general?

Or, today merc conjuncts the sun....same thing, bad time for communications? It seems to go against natal/mundane astrology;

Or, is this just a horary thing...and not a typical mundane astrology thing?

curious :confused:
barbh

[starlink]

Hello Barbh, today I just ran into a horary question here on the Forum where it was said that Mars is the only planet who gains strength in the presence of the Sun. Must look it up for you and will give you the link. Wait a minute.

[starlink]

Here it is. It is a thread started by Ra Divinington in the Horary questions for communication. Ra has Mars combust and this is what she got as an answer:

"as far as I know, any planet can be debilitated by the Sun except Mars. In cases like this (less than 8 degrees distance), the only planet that ``gets`` intensity (excactly the oposite) is the Mars and the Sun is making him ``more powerfull`` - I read about it at astrology.weekly and I am sure about this information. So, things are even better than they look. Sun will cerainly attract fame and Mars is the symbol of risk and activation...

Also: Lilly wrote of this: "The significator of the Querent combust, shows him or her in great fear, and overpowered by some great person". (CA., p.113)
But: Definition of CombustSaid of a planet when in extreme closeness to the Sun, the limits variously placed at from 3° to 8°30'. The characteristic effect to which the term applies is probably confined within an arc of 3° and is more pronounced when the planet rises after the Sun. Older authorities, including Milton, have described it as weakening, except in the case of Mars which was said to be intensified. The probabilities are that the effect of the combust condition is to combine the planet's influence more closely with that of the Sun, until it is no longer a physical emotion capable of independent control, but an integral part of that consciousness of Destiny that the Sun imparts. Thus Mercury combust imparts to the mind a capacity for concentration upon what it deems its own destiny, but robs it of its receptivity to distracting or diverting influences. Hence it is no bar to the achievement of its own objectives insofar as the ability to achieve them is within its own powers, but it robs the native of the cooperation of those whom he alienates by his particular species of obtuse deafness to any or all argument that runs counter to his own concepts. Edison and Kant both illustrate this interpretation. Venus combust may take away the strength to achieve, but when in a particularly close conjunction with the Sun it produces the condition sometimes termed nymphomania - described by Bolitho concerning Lola Montez. Mars combust is always the man who fights for what he wants; and so with each planet according to its intrinsic nature.

The distinction is an important one, in that a person with an entirely unaspected Mercury is one who usually develops a complex by way of an escape mechanism, while one whose Mercury is within 5° to 10° of the Sun is seldom afflicted with any manner of mental derangement.

Wilson says "there seems manifest a difference in genius and propensities of natives, according to the distance of their Mercury from the Sun; and that those whose Mercury is combust have little wit or solid judgment, though they will persevere in business and frequently with good success." Also that a good aspect to the Moon, if angular and increasing in light, will in great measure remedy this defect, making one "judicious and penetrating."

It should not be confused with the phrase "under the Sun's beams" which applies to, let us say, the degree of non-combustion, and is perhaps embodied in the doctrine that a planet within the Sun's aura - which extends to 17° on either side - is within orbs of a conjunction therewith. In other words, while the orbs of the planets, with regard to aspects, are variously from 3° to 10° according to the nature of the aspect, the solar orb, by conjunction or opposition, can be as much as 17°.

(Nicholas deVore - Encyclopedia of Astrology)


I did not know this and am glad I do now, so we dont have to be afraid of the coming Mars/Sun conjunction.

Cheers, Starlink

[Culpeper]

When any planet except the Moon is conjunct the Sun within 17 minutes of arc by longitude it is called Cazimi and by the Arabians and earlier astrologers considered very strong and favorable. Later astrologers are said to redicule this idea, but you must consider the anti-Arab prejudice they sometimes showed on other subjects. This represents a very narrow window of time, but it can sometimes be used for purposes of electional astrology. It is necessary to understand the nature of the planet involved and the business of the house in which it falls where the chart is cast.

This conjunction can also be used with mundane charts. For New York, New York the conjunction with Mars on 5 December 2008, is in the 14th degree of Sagittarius in the 7th house using classical houses. There is a sinister(left hand) square aspect to the Moon in the 10th house. The Moon is also in the 14th degree of the sign of Pisces. This is considered favorable and a very strong aspect. The Moon rules the second house of the public finances. From this it may be expected that governmental efforts to stabilized the financial crisis will begin to show some favorable results.

[Kingsley]

The king didnt usually bode too well when the Sun and Mars came together. He usually met with his enemies or started a battle. Its a bit like being poked in the eye with a burnt stick. I guess its a matter of what significators in Horary point towards the perfecting Sun and Mars conjunction.

kingsley

[Awakened_Pisces]

Sun-Mars conjunction. This is like a volcano about to erupt. It's not a good sign. Mars(War) being strengthened by the Suns rays=big time wows.

[barbh]

except in the case of Mars which was said to be intensified

ok, so the sun conjunct mars is a positive thing, in that it intensifies mars? I suspect it must matter what sign mars is in. If Mars is in its detriment, then it must make it more able to cause mischief. If in its rulership, then it can be quite noble.
I don't understand the Mercury definitions below though.

So, transit-wise, with the SUN MARS conj in Sag...Mars is peregrine. Would this make it a positive Mars thing or a negative mars thing, if the combustion is going to intensify it?

what about natal work? Someone with a sun jupiter conjunction say....would be less jupitery since the sun weakens it, or more??

thanks
barbh

[starlink]

When any planet except the Moon is conjunct the Sun within 17 minutes of arc by longitude it is called Cazimi and by the Arabians and earlier astrologers considered very strong and favorable.

Yes Culpepper, this is known to me, but Barbh wants to know if Mars is the only one who does not get burned by the Sun when Mars is "under the Sunbeams" or Combust, which is respectively 17.5 degrees or 8.5 degrees away from the Sun.
According to what I copied from another thread above, Mars does not seem to be affected.
I just looked up Frawleys view on it and he does not agree with it. He says:


It is sometimes claimed that as Mars, like the Sun, is hot and dry, combustion does not affect it. It does. The idea with combustion is that it is not safe to come too close to the king (unless you are in his bosom (cazimi)); it is no less unsafe if you are a soldier (Mars) than Ann Boleyn (Venus).

Good, this is what Frawley thinks. I guess it is up to what you believe is more justified.

Frawley does not say "strengthened" by the way,like it is said in that article. Just "not affected". So there are different opinions.

So, transit-wise, with the SUN MARS conj in Sag...Mars is peregrine. Would this make it a positive Mars thing or a negative mars thing, if the combustion is going to intensify it?

Should Mars be strengthened by the Sun, but peregrine (according to Lilly showing the person is violent and a prattler without modesty or honesty, a lover of Slaughter and Quarrels, Murderer and a traitor amongst other bad things) then I would think that these traits would strengthen the negative qualities of the person. To me that would be logical.

Frawley says that a peregrine planet does not want to see reason, is temporary blinded and if he wants to, can hide from others as he will also not be seen by others.

He also says: if conjunction would give a YES to the question, then combustion can be ignored, otherwise you can never ever get a positive answer because the Sun could not be conjuncted. The only exception maybe could be the Moon-Sun. I have not read about that. Moon looses it's light when it gets close to the Sun, so about this I would not know.

Culpepper, do you know how this works?

[starlink]

Barbh,

what about natal work? Someone with a sun jupiter conjunction say....would be less jupitery since the sun weakens it, or more??


In modern natal astrology no, Jupiter will enlarge the Sun's qualities in the chart and also gives the Sun a Jupitarian optimism and such.
In traditional astrology I suspect that Jupiter will be weakened being combust or under the beams. I like looking at modern natal astrology with a more traditional approach as well, like using both rules Mars and Pluto, but when it comes to combustion, I really would not know.
Culpepper might also know the answer to this one:)!

[archergirl]

I would say also that because Mars is peregrine for the majority of Sagittarius, combustion will affect him, unless in the horary chart he has accidental dignity by house. In any case, combustion symbolises a sort of overwhelm or blindness to the matter, or that the matter is hidden somehow, so unless you are planning to do something covert and illicit, being hidden by the Sun cannot do the querent (or whatever Mars is in the chart) much good...unless the Sun is also a significator. I must say, I have tried a lot of charts with combust planets, even strong planets (in dignity, accidentally or otherwise), and the combustion has always had an effect.

In natal or mundane it might be different, although it seems that a natal planet conjunct the Sun makes the person less objective.

AG:)

[barbh]

Ok, so for the Sun Mars conjunction on the 5th, we might expect people to be running around trying to assert themselves in ways that others may not like....maybe too pushy perhaps, or passively agressive, or maybe someone doing something on the sly or trying to hide a sneaky action from someone else.....?

barbh

[archergirl]

As with everything, it depends on the context. :)

AG

[rogue_red]

Sun-Mars conjunction. This is like a volcano about to erupt. It's not a good sign. Mars(War) being strengthened by the Suns rays=big time wows.

Im not sure I entirely agree with you there. Sun Mars conjuction would only be considered a problem if mars were afflicted either by sign (like in pisces) or by negatively aspecting another planet or angle. Also the position and status of the moon would hold considerable weight as to whether Sun Mars conj were a problem to the native. A weakened or volatile moon 'could' allow for the combined and driven energies of sun/mars conj to vent. Sort of like an aneurysm. A weakening of a blood vessel that in times of stress and pressure allow for a breach. Its never the intention of the blood vessel to divert the flow but a weakened area makes this a possibility.

The whole topic is really interesting. I have been looking into sun merc conjunctions and their relevence to Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. I have sun conj merc (5deg 42 sep) in Aries in 1st house and have a.d.d. I have a friend with sun conj merc as well and we both suffer from verbal combustion :D. When we get all worked up its like our mouths cant keep up with our brains and we literally choke on our words.

One question tho. According to the above text supplied (kindly) by Starlink, Due to the suns radiance, anything that falls within 17deg of the sun is considered conj. If that is the case then I also have a sun/mars conjunction but are conjunction 'weakened' if either planet falls in a different sign. For example sun at 29 deg 40 Aries conj Mars at 16 deg Taurus?

I will read more about this once I have my kiddywinks off to school (very eager to do so):D

[rogue_red]

I cast a chart using my location and adjusting the time and date to the exact moment the sun and mars conjunct. I dont know whether this technique is valid but i find it really usefull in determining how certain transits will act out where I live as it seems to me that the same transit can have different effects for different locations.
So the sun and mars conjunct at 14 deg 9' 19" of Sag on the 6th of December at 11:04 a.m.
I dont think mars is peregrine because its in its triplicity. Also Mars is furthur boosted by being in the 10th house (along with the sun thus gaining accidental dignity) and mars is exalted in capricorn, its domicile ruler and according to the ancients Mars rules the tenth house making it exalted there and In this chart Scorpio (co-ruled by Mars) is on the tenth house cusp.
Culpeper says
This conjunction can also be used with mundane charts. For New York, New York the conjunction with Mars on 5 December 2008, is in the 14th degree of Sagittarius in the 7th house using classical houses. There is a sinister(left hand) square aspect to the Moon in the 10th house. The Moon is also in the 14th degree of the sign of Pisces. This is considered favorable and a very strong aspect. The Moon rules the second house of the public finances. From this it may be expected that governmental efforts to stabilized the financial crisis will begin to show some favorable results.
For New Zealand the moon is in the second house when square aspected.

[archergirl]

In horary, Mars' triplicity is water, not fire.

We are still discussing horary, yes? Otherwise, I'll need to move this to General Astrology.

Thanks,
AG:)

[starlink]

Rogue Red, you asked:


but are conjunctions 'weakened' if either planet falls in a different sign. For example sun at 29 deg 40 Aries conj Mars at 16 deg Taurus?


I think a conjunction always weakens when one planet who travels faster than the Sun, is removing itself from the Sun, but in this case, Sun is faster than Mars,and the conjunction is an ingoing one. This alone, and especiallly because Sun is a luminary,will not weaken but strengthen the conjunction.
I dont think, especially in natal astrology, that differents sign placements will have an effect on weakening or strengthening a planet. Again, natal interpretation is very different from horary interpretation.

The 17° aura of the Sun applies primarily to horary astrology where it is at it's least burning. (light sunburn), whilst when the planet reaches 8.5 degrees distance from the Sun it is far worse, like a 2nd degree burning. When Cazimi, within 17 seconds, it is in the heart of the Sun and apparently joins in the strength of the Sun. In natal astrology we dont see this used, unless you approach all of astrology in a 16th century fashion and DO apply these terminologies.( I think AstroTeacher does as he once interpreted Saturn in the 5th house in that fashion.)

In natal astrology,when the two planets are each in a different sign, they will not have the same rulership which will make their energy work out in a different way or area. Sun in Aries, Mars in Taurus. If both rulers are found in the same house and sign in the chart, like both Mars and Venus in Gemini, I think that the conjunction could be more harmonious, but should Mars be in Gemini and Venus in Scorpio, then this conjunction could probably cause a problem as both planets form a "togetherness" (the conjunction)but still want to use their energy in a different way. The problem would be less, when the elements are compatible and this could prove to be quite special, but if one planet operates from an emotional basis whilst the other only uses it's brainpower, then obviously a conjunction could create stress. I hope we can go back to horary now:)

[starlink]

We are still discussing horary, yes? Otherwise, I'll need to move this to General Astrology.

Yes, I have been tempted as well to do this, but I think we are right now in the comparing state:)

[rogue_red]

In horary, Mars' triplicity is water, not fire.

We are still discussing horary, yes? Otherwise, I'll need to move this to General Astrology.

Thanks,
AG:)

Thankyou Archgirl. Horary is very new to me and I tend to be a bit of a dog with a tasty bone sometimes and forget my manners. I got a little off topic.

Starlink. Thankyou for your explanations. This makes for very fascinating stuff.:)