Where Is My Dad Now?

[ALST123]

That was literally how I phrased the question. In a way, I kind of know. On Aug 24th 2007 he died of Cancer (although his actual passing could have been due to MRSA). I worded the question like that because I wanted to know if he is in a better place now.

Here's the chart:-

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff13/ALST123/astro_2gw_118_where_is_dad_hr499118.gif

Now, I think I take h4 to represent Dad. His significator is therefore Venus. Venus is way up on the MC in H10. This is the first time I've done a chart on this kind of issue (and was actually unsure which forum section to put it under), but anyway the position of Venus is intriguing. Right on the Midheaven. So does that mean Dad is in heaven? I was absolutely sure when he passed that he had gone to heaven (he was such a wonderful and kind person). I am a R. Catholic and do believe in that. (But then I also believe in past lives etc so my beliefs are eclectic to say the least!).

Just after he passed (I'm talking hours here), my brother and I were on our way to the hospital to see him and say goodbye. We drove up a steep hill and when we got to the top, the most wonderful sunset I have ever seen beamed around us. My brother said to me, "You and I may have different beliefs, but I think we both know what that means.". We have also seen lots of butterflies since he went (apparently a sign from those who have passed that they have got to a better place).

Can anyone comment further?

Thanks,
Ax.

[archergirl]

I'm sorry, but I just can't see how this chart can be read, even if it looks like it can. What happens to people in the afterlife is not something, IMO, that horary can answer.

Horary deals with tangibles: relationships, house purchases, etc. It can deal with death and the dying, but not the dead; that is something beyond our ability to interpret.

You are asking from the frame of reference of your own belief system. This system may be different to mine, or to anyone else's who reads this chart. What is 'a better place'? To some this might mean 'heaven', to some it might mean 'reincarnated'; to some it might mean Cardiff.;) I am most decidedly NOT a Roman Catholic; so what if I come up with something that goes against your own personal beliefs, using my beliefs? Who is right? And how can it be proven?

Nope. Don't think it can be done. The dead don't, I think, give a toss 'where' they are. 'Where' is the concern of the living, and those who have been left behind.

AG:)

[ALST123]

A particularly sensitive answer AG.

Many thanks.
Ax.

[archergirl]

If it is any small comfort, ALST123, my spiritual teacher once equated the passage from dying to death, to a farmer putting down his hoe at the end of a long, hard day of working the field: tiredness and relief in equal measure. And maybe a pint of lager to look forward to. :)

AG:)

[starlink]

Hi ALST, I strongly believe in Omens and what you and your brother saw that day shows to me that you were right in believing that he went to a better place. I would keep that memory in your heart if I were you. It is not coincidence that your brother thought the same thing.

Starlink:)

[Andonis]

Hi ALST....If Horary is not true for the dead nobody knows. So what you believe therefore is important. The position of Venus you chose to represent your father is prominent in a great house. No doubt in your mind he is in Heaven. I also agree. You as Saturn could communicate (link) to him via Uranus(skies) or the moon. So praying is a perfect way to talk.

[freedomlover]

Hello Alst123,

I have experienced similar issues in my life, and know the pain and confusion you are feeling, which is probably why I felt drawn to your post.

I respect ArcherGirl's opinion on many things, but I beg to differ here. I believe the chart can be read as horary, and much can be seen in it.

Here is my interpretation:

You are at 17*Virgo in the 8th, showing your interest in the things hidden from view, also your worry and concern over your father.

Your father would be the cusp of 4th, which is Venus in the 10th conjunct the MC, as Andonis pointed out. It is indeed in a high, exalted place. Also note that Venus is in the sign of Scorpio, which rules death, "piercing the veil", and reincarnation. Your father's turned 12th, which rules heavenly consciousness and "one with all", also has Taurus on the cusp, so Venus rules his 12th house, as well. The sig for your father and his being "one with all" are the same, so I would read this as a clear sign that your father is, indeed, in heaven.

Your sig (Saturn in Virgo) and his (Venus in Scorpio) are within orb of a quintile, as well, which has a connection spiritual gifts. A quintile is also an easily overlooked aspect in a chart, you have to really look for it to find it. A quintile can represent linking your inner and outer being by using inborn talents and insights. I would interpret this as meaning that you have the ability to communicate with him, but you need to get in touch with it. The signifier for your 9th house of prayer, connecting with those "higher" than you, is Mars in Scorpio, which is in the 9th. To me that cinches it. Mars will also be coming into a sextile with your sig of Saturn, showing the connecting of you with either your ability, or another person who can be the intermediary for you in contacting him. The applying orb is something of 8 - so days, weeks, months, or years - I don't know.

For some reason, I see the cusp of the 7th, in this case, as possibly being your inner being- your soul. You as the 1st house cusp in Capricorn, showing your outer being, but the 7th cusp of the Moon as your inner self. The Moon is in Taurus and in your father's 12th house, which is your 3rd house of communication. The Moon is disposited by Venus in Scorpio. I can interpret this in several ways:
First of all, I see it as you feeling "earthbound", but needing to communicate with him. He is communicating with you from the spirit realm in a way you can connect with - through your physical senses. The Moon also is in an exact trine ( but beginning to separate) from your sig ofSaturn in the 8th. (Possibly the physical signs did ease your worries quite a bit?)
Another way to look at is that you may be able to access your own spiritual abilities to communicate/feel connected with him by using some kind of art/creativity.

The Moon not only is trining your sig, but also the sig for your father's 8th house of death, reincarnation, spiritual transformation, and "piercing the veil" - Jupiter in Capricorn in your 12th. To me I see this as further confirmation linking the "signs" you've been given as your father trying to communicate with you. He is "beyong the veil"/8th house, but in your 12th - in the place you want him to be. So, you have a grand trine in earth signs linking all of it together.

Part of Fortune is at 14*Leo in intercepted 7th, in an inconjunct to your father's death sig of Jupiter. I can see a few interpretations to this:
It may again point to your need to get in touch with your inner child/creativity. (5th house), or possibly a child can help you with the matter. Your 5th and 8th house have the same sig of Mercury in Libra, which is applying a square to your father's 8th house sig in 7 somethings. Ruler of intercepted 7th/Leo is Sun - also in your 8th house. (Not sure how all that ties together, but I sense it has some kind of importance in this.)

One other thought on the grand trine: The Moon is separating from both Saturn and Jupiter. Jupiter in Capricorn can represent the "image of God" that is traditional. Linking to Saturn in Virgo, which is your sig - it can show the traditional Roman Catholic image of God, which has been one of an "angry" God, who is upset if you aren't perfect, making you pay penance - a lot of guilt and condemnation. I urge you to search your heart and belief system carefully, because if you do not see God as entirely loving and merciful, you will have a hard time believing that an imperfect person was accepted into heaven. To me, I would assume that this is somehow a part of your sub-conscious or conscious belief system, or you wouldn't have any doubt where your father is. Again, the Mars in Scorpio in the 9th seems to be a key somehow - further prayer, connecting with a soulmate, metaphysical study, or even a medium (perhaps a male) who could help you find peace about this. The Moon is moving away from it's connection in the grand trine. Don't get me wrong, I see alot of good in the Catholic religion, and I know not all Catholic churches are like this - just pointing out some of its pitfalls. The Moon in Taurus could also signify Mother Mary, and that connecting with her in a stronger way could help you.


There are three things that come to mind as possible things you may want to check into:

1 Have you read or seen John Edwards/James Van Praagh, etc?
2 Have you seen the movie, "Dragonfly"? My oldest daughter's boyfriend was killed suddenly a few years back. My daughter was an atheist/agnostic type. She saw the movie Dragonfly, and it was extremely healing and comforting to her. I don't know if she would have been able to get over the grief if she hadn't seen it.
3 Several songs that have really ministered healing to me came to my mind. I've included links to the videos. If you're not a country music fan, you may not have heard them. But even if you don't usually listen to country music, I urge you to give them a try- there are some really good messages in them. And if you have heard them, it may be helpful to listen again at this time - as the subject is obviously on your mind, by your posting this chart.


God Only Cries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHLcB3xb2ko

I Believe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TODtBsxA0ik

Love Without End, Amen ( couldn't find the original video, but this seems to be the best of the ones Youtube had to offer - a slideshow to original music.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0mrkRFSibU

The Highwaymen ( a great song about reincarnation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cdCNfbcl3c



I hope this has helped in some way. Lots of love and light come with it.

Freedomlover

[archergirl]

And I respect everyone's attempts to read this chart, for ALST123's sake.:) But you all seem to be missing my point:

Whilst this chart clearly reflects ALST123's question and worries, it doesn't, in fact, provide any sort of answer. It only reflects. Freedomlover has made a great attempt at the chart, but again, this only reflects Freedomlover's perspective.Venus in the 10th conjunct the MC, as Andonis pointed out. It is indeed in a high, exalted place. Also note that Venus is in the sign of Scorpio, which rules death, "piercing the veil", and reincarnation. Your father's turned 12th, which rules heavenly consciousness and "one with all", also has Taurus on the cusp, so Venus rules his 12th house, as well. The sig for your father and his being "one with all" are the same, so I would read this as a clear sign that your father is, indeed, in heaven.

This is your belief: that there is a heaven. This may well also reflect ALST123's belief that there is a heaven. But the father's significator being so prominent, in detriment, in the chart, does not mean he is actually in heaven. Venus is in detriment: therefore, not in an exalted place at all.

I think this more clearly reflects ALST123's concern that her father is not in a good place: otherwise, why would Venus be so poorly?

Your sig (Saturn in Virgo) and his (Venus in Scorpio) are within orb of a quintile, as well, which has a connection spiritual gifts. A quintile is also an easily overlooked aspect in a chart, you have to really look for it to find it. A quintile can represent linking your inner and outer being by using inborn talents and insights.

Quintiles are not used in horary; again, you are putting a modern natal spin on a chart; you are also, again, accessing ALST12's frame of reference: this quintile has nothing to do with 'where' her father is. It has more to do with addressing ALST123's beliefs. :)

One other thought on the grand trine: The Moon is separating from both Saturn and Jupiter. Jupiter in Capricorn can represent the "image of God" that is traditional. Linking to Saturn in Virgo, which is your sig - it can show the traditional Roman Catholic image of God, which has been one of an "angry" God, who is upset if you aren't perfect, making you pay penance - a lot of guilt and condemnation. I urge you to search your heart and belief system carefully, because if you do not see God as entirely loving and merciful, you will have a hard time believing that an imperfect person was accepted into heaven. To me, I would assume that this is somehow a part of your sub-conscious or conscious belief system, or you wouldn't have any doubt where your father is. Again, the Mars in Scorpio in the 9th seems to be a key somehow - further prayer, connecting with a soulmate, metaphysical study, or even a medium (perhaps a male) who could help you find peace about this. The Moon is moving away from it's connection in the grand trine. Don't get me wrong, I see alot of good in the Catholic religion, and I know not all Catholic churches are like this - just pointing out some of its pitfalls. The Moon in Taurus could also signify Mother Mary, and that connecting with her in a stronger way could help you.

And again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with horary. This is a case of making the chart fit the belief. A pretty darn good go; but you are reading into it, what you want to see.:)

Oh, I sound like such an old fogey and a party-pooper. You'll believe what you want to believe about a chart like this. Whatever works, I guess.:p

AG:)

[freedomlover]

AG,


Whilst this chart clearly reflects ALST123's question and worries, it doesn't, in fact, provide any sort of answer. It only reflects. Freedomlover has made a great attempt at the chart, but again, this only reflects Freedomlover's perspective.
I understand where you are coming from, and you are great at traditional horary. I know this is not traditional, but I use it on myself all the time, and find I get great insight from it. I catch a smattering of hints from other people on the forum that they use a similar method, and it works for them, as well. I probably should have pre-faced the reply with the statement that this is not traditional horary, for the sake of newbies, etc, who wouldn't know the difference - my error.

However, to quote a great horarist:

Whatever works, I guess.:p

[Culpeper]

Usually I avoid investigating unconfirmable mysteries with the celestial science, but it appears that your chart can be delineated and the answer may help you. Also I will add that I am not R.C.

Using the whole sign system, the 4th house from the first is Aries. This house represents both your Dad and the final outcome including death and its aftermath. The significator is Mars in its favorite domicile Scorpio. Mars is very strong and happy where it is. As you can see, the symbolism is appropriate.

The 8th sign is Leo and the Sun is significator of the 8th house also ruling death. The Sun is with the fixed star Spica, always a very fortunate and happy location in chart. With two positive indications, my conclusion is that your Dad has passed on to a very happy place.

[freedomlover]

Usually I avoid investigating unconfirmable mysteries with the celestial science, but it appears that your chart can be delineated and the answer may help you. Also I will add that I am not R.C.

Using the whole sign system, the 4th house from the first is Aries. This house represents both your Dad and the final outcome including death and its aftermath. The significator is Mars in its favorite domicile Scorpio. Mars is very strong and happy where it is. As you can see, the symbolism is appropriate.

The 8th sign is Leo and the Sun is significator of the 8th house also ruling death. The Sun is with the fixed star Spica, always a very fortunate and happy location in chart. With two positive indications, my conclusion is that your Dad has passed on to a very happy place.
Gee, Culpeper,

You expressed the same conclusion as I arrived at, without near as many words - and from a completely different way of doing it. I'm impressed - please say a little prayer for me that I will be able to express myself more clearly and concisely. My Mercury (r) in Sag gets a little long-winded, and I'm not sure if I come across so clearly.

Kudos,

Freedomlover

[archergirl]

Pfft. And here I am grumbling about stuff.:p

Notwithstanding a long debate about the benefits and drawbacks of the Whole Sign system (of which I will admit I am not a fan!), this is great:The 8th sign is Leo and the Sun is significator of the 8th house also ruling death. The Sun is with the fixed star Spica, always a very fortunate and happy location in chart. With two positive indications, my conclusion is that your Dad has passed on to a very happy place.

In another horary on another site, someone used the Sun to represent the 'heart' of a man: so not only the physical heart, but the 'heart' essence. Looking at it this way would seem to fit.

Despite my grumpiness, I, too, feel that Dad has passed to a better place, because this is my belief. What we call it in the end probably doesn't matter.;)

I'll go away now.
AG:D

[ALST123]

Hi,

Well, I am truly flabbergasted by these responses. Some of it will take time to digest as I am clearly not as good at horary as all of you. I guess I don't use horary in the traditional way sometimes, but hey (and I'm just peeking above the parapet here) shouldn't all things evolve? I use it in an intuitive way, pretty much as people use tarot, I guess.

Despite my grumpiness, I, too, feel that Dad has passed to a better place, because this is my belief. What we call it in the end probably doesn't matter.;)

I'll go away now.
AG:D

Ha ha, AG! Dad always did have the last word (in the nicest possible way!). I thank you for joining the discussion. You are a great horarist.

The 8th sign is Leo and the Sun is significator of the 8th house also ruling death. The Sun is with the fixed star Spica, always a very fortunate and happy location in chart. With two positive indications, my conclusion is that your Dad has passed on to a very happy place.


Perhaps that is why we saw the sunset?

I hope this has helped in some way. Lots of love and light come with it.

Freedomlover

Thank you, you're very kind. I shall try out the songs and the films. You have offered me so many points to think about it will take me a while to understand and develop them. It's interesting that after mass my children and I always light a candle each for Dad, and we send him our love (they and I were very close to him). Perhaps that's where this comes in...

It may again point to your need to get in touch with your inner child/creativity. (5th house), or possibly a child can help you with the matter.

My brain hurts a bit now, but your encouragement and empathy have been very comforting. Thank you, All.

Take care, smiles and light,
Ax.

[ALST123]

I urge you to search your heart and belief system carefully, because if you do not see God as entirely loving and merciful, you will have a hard time believing that an imperfect person was accepted into heaven. To me, I would assume that this is somehow a part of your sub-conscious or conscious belief system, or you wouldn't have any doubt where your father is.

Oh, and I just wanted to say, that I actually believe God to be a truly merciful and loving being, not necessarily like the God of the Old Testament. I think "he" is so "good" he goes beyond our realms of understanding. Perhaps he had to appear to people like that back in Old Testament times, so that they could understand what he meant. (Just groping in the dark there. I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers. All I know is that I accept the leap of faith that there is a God, and I think "he's" a good one! :) )

If it makes a difference, I do feel I can "connect" with my Dad in some way through prayer. Even if it merely means that this resurfaces old memories of him.

Anyway, night All. Sweet dreams.

Ax.

[freedomlover]

Ax,

I use it in an intuitive way, pretty much as people use tarot, I guess. Yes, that's a good way of wording what I do.


Thank you, you're very kind. I shall try out the songs and the films. You have offered me so many points to think about it will take me a while to understand and develop them. It's interesting that after mass my children and I always light a candle each for Dad, and we send him our love (they and I were very close to him). Perhaps that's where this comes in...

My brain hurts a bit now, but your encouragement and empathy have been very comforting. Thank you, All.

I really did mean to help - I was picking up on something empathically and trying to respond to it. However Culpeper showed me the beauty of simplicity, and I really see how I have a tendency to "swamp" people with information. Sorry I made your brain hurt. :o Hopefully you can extract something to assist you out of all of that. I know the things I was picking up on, just had a terrible time expressing it clearly in words. If you put all of the little things together, you get a big picture, though. Guess a jigsaw puzzle wasn't what you needed. Again, sorry, I'm working on it.


It may again point to your need to get in touch with your inner child/creativity. (5th house), or possibly a child can help you with the matter.It's interesting that after mass my children and I always light a candle each for Dad, and we send him our love (they and I were very close to him). Perhaps that's where this comes in...

Yes, I would say that this could easily signify that you are connecting with him with your children through the candlelight and he is receiving the love sent to him. (Sun/Leo)


Oh, and I just wanted to say, that I actually believe God to be a truly merciful and loving being, not necessarily like the God of the Old Testament. I think "he" is so "good" he goes beyond our realms of understanding. Perhaps he had to appear to people like that back in Old Testament times, so that they could understand what he meant. (Just groping in the dark there. I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers. All I know is that I accept the leap of faith that there is a God, and I think "he's" a good one! :) )

I really assumed this was probably the case. However, from my years of working on the subject, I can attest to this: Even though part of us does have the part that wants to believe that God is merciful, and tries their best to act upon it, there is another side of us that doubts, most of it from programming from past lives. If we all had zero doubt, we could all do the things Jesus did. Therefore the more doubt we can get in touch with and remove, the more we believe and trust that God is love. (Moon is in Gemini today, you know. Gemini rules double-mindedness and doubt. Think of the man who told Jesus, upon witnessing a miracle, "I believe, help thou my unbelief.") The doubt is what prompted you to even question that a good man like your father could ever be any place except heaven or as some say: a happy place.( for AG;)).


Hoping that all doubt is erased,

Freedomlover

[ALST123]

(Still not got to bed yet!).

Sorry I made your brain hurt

No, no! I didn't mean you specifically at all! I am touched by your help! My brain was just hurting because so much was written coming from different people, and there were so many differing viewpoints to take in. I think all of them have merit. Please don't be down-hearted! Your contribution is truly valuable to me, and I like long-winded. I, too, have that particular "gift"! Check my other threads!

I really assumed this was probably the case. However, from my years of working on the subject, I can attest to this: Even though part of us does have the part that wants to believe that God is merciful, and tries their best to act upon it, there is another side of us that doubts, most of it from programming from past lives. If we all had zero doubt, we could all do the things Jesus did. Therefore the more doubt we can get in touch with and remove, the more we believe and trust that God is love. (Moon is in Gemini today, you know. Gemini rules double-mindedness and doubt. Think of the man who told Jesus, upon witnessing a miracle, "I believe, help thou my unbelief.") The doubt is what prompted you to even question that a good man like your father could ever be any place except heaven or as some say: a happy place.

Yes, you are right. I see what you mean. Because Dad had such a hard life (6 natal retrogrades!) and never deserved any of it, a tiny, scary part of me sometimes wonders whether he would have been cheated out of having the wonderful afterlife he so deserves. Any then I switch those thoughts off, because it just can't be possible that he's in a bad place. There must be some justice, somewhere.

Thanks for your comments again Freedomlover, most uplifting.

TC,
Ax.