Ascendant Ruler in Detriment or Dignity [Archive]

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Night Sky

09-27-2008, 06:58 PM

freedomlover

09-27-2008, 08:33 PM

Nightsky,

You wrote:

I am just wondering about what it means to have the Ascendant ruler placed in detriment or fall.

My theory is that a person with this debility will never be happy in themselves, with where they are or what they are doing.

I am just curious to see if it makes much difference whether you have Ascendant ruler in essential dignity or in essential debility?

Oh, please don't be so gloom and doom, Nightsky! I wouldn't say they would never be happy in themselves, etc. To me, it would mean that their lesson plan involved them having to work hard on overcoming it - a lot of emphasis on personal growth. So, I guess, if that person never got really serious about their personal growth, then they probably would always live a miserable life. But never say never!:rolleyes:

FL

Night Sky

09-27-2008, 08:35 PM

It's an observation from more than more source. : )

freedomlover

09-27-2008, 08:41 PM

It's an observation from more than more source. : )

I understand... but don't you think that sounds awful fatalistic? What would that do to a person if you were reading their chart, and told them that they would never have a happy life because their ascendant ruler is in bad shape?

Night Sky

09-27-2008, 08:43 PM

freedomlover

09-27-2008, 08:57 PM

NightSky,

You wrote:

So you are conceding now that I have point.

It's an observation from more than more source (I think you meant to write "more than ONE source - not more -- A typo, I think)

I am saying that I believe you that you have received this information from several sources, and that you did not come up with this idea on your own.

You wouldn't tell them the truth by all means.
Well, I'm a Sagittarius with Sag Mercury, so that wouldn't work for me!:D

FL

P.S. However I did entirely agree you had a point on the SouthNode thread.;)

Night Sky

09-27-2008, 09:02 PM

Thanks Freedom lover.

I would like to have some examples of people with detrimental Ascendant rulers... or Dignified ones, just to see the difference...

I am not discounting aspects to the Ascendant, nor the Sun, nor planets placed in the 1st. Only put out some thoughts... just to see what people would come up with.

freedomlover

09-27-2008, 09:23 PM

NightSky,

You wrote:

I would like to have some examples of people with detrimental Ascendant rulers... or Dignified ones, just to see the difference...
Well, I would gladly offer mine, but my Ascendant ruler is Saturn in Pisces, which according to the guidelines on the "Saturn in dignity and debility" thread, is neither here nor there - just plain old average Saturn.:o (Unless anybody knows any different about Saturn in Pisces)

FL

Awakened_Pisces

09-27-2008, 09:30 PM

I have Sun in ASC Leo. Because of Chiron/Lilith in Aquarius. This beautifully dignified placement was cut on hold for a bit. But right now, it's shining beautifully. I'm taking control of my life, I'm excited and ready.

Froggy

09-28-2008, 12:18 AM

Here's one for you!!!

I'm an Aries ASC, Mars in detriment in Taurus.

"My theory is that a person with this debility will never be happy in themselves, with where they are or what they are doing."

I feel like that is sort of a broad statement, but, I do definitely feel that no mattter what I'm doing, it's not enough. I like myself a fair amount of the time I suppose...
it all just feels kinda broad...like how do you measure that? Or what would be a clear indicator?

Night Sky

09-28-2008, 12:25 AM

I'm just going on the principle of the fact that the Ascendant ruler is meant to signify the person, the place that they are at, what their main interest and focus in life is.

So if you have this most important planet placed in a sign in which it is "at odds," "not happy," then it is possible to say that much of the person's life should be an uphill struggle... because they are constantly in "the wrong place."

Aries rising with Mars in Taurus. Aries says GO! while the ruler of the sign is placed in another sign which says STOP. Or at least go really slowly. One question froggy, is that Mars in the 1st house?

Froggy

09-28-2008, 05:25 AM

It IS in the 1st house actually.

It's very Taurean though...I'm way lazy. I get **** done when I have to, and I am the farthest thing you'll ever meet from a procrastinator, but I do enjoy the couch more than I should. Also I am not quick to anger or anything...very passive.

Alstroemeria

09-28-2008, 06:29 AM

I have Cancer Ascendant with Taurus Moon; I'm afraid I love food a little too much. (The Moon's trine to Jupiter doesn't help.) My Ascendant is square Mars (intercepted, only fire planet), opposite Uranus-Neptune conjunction, and trine Pluto. My Sun is semi-sextile Moon, conjunct Venus/Mercury, square Jupiter, and closely conjunct Aldebaran, hahaha.

Two astro twins I know have Libra Ascendant with Venus in Virgo (fall). The one I know very well seems distraught in the love department; she has many suitors but returns none of their affections, and the one guy she's liked didn't return hers. She has idealized visions of what a perfect relationship should be like, and often brings up what her perfect man would be like. Also self-image issues; maybe it's Sun Opposition Saturn or something. Ascendant is squared by Uranus-Neptune and trined by Saturn.

Romantic love is not the main focus of her life, however. She may be "at odds" with herself but her life is abound with joy, optimism -- despite struggles.

As for her astro twin, he is just... a butt.

Looking through my charts, I have quite a few examples of ascendant rulers in dignity and debility.

I suppose then, most younger-generation people with Scorpio Ascendants (with Pluto in Scorpio) are happy with themselves and such? Well, I guess Mars could be the Ascendant Ruler too, then...

aquarius7000

09-28-2008, 06:46 AM

My theory is that a person with this debility will never be happy in themselves, with where they are or what they are doing.

I am a Leo Rising with Sun in Aquarius (Sun's detriment); and besides the usual dissatisfaction with myself (which we all have, even need to have to a certain extent..), I really can't say that I have never been happy in myself...., and, accordingly, certainly don't want to think that I never will be.

I'm just going on the principle of the fact that the Ascendant ruler is meant to signify the person, the place that they are at, what their main interest and focus in life is.
The main focus in life is shown by the placement of Sun in a house in the chart.

The Ascendant shows the self-image you portray to your surroundings, your outer personality, how others perceive you..; so these things might suffer, or perhaps that particular area, which is associated with the Asc ruler, if the ruler is poorly placed or aspected.

IMO, whether "one is happy in themselves" depends on many factors in the chart really, say thinking-Mercury, sub-conscious personality (inner self/emotions/feelings) - the Moon, aspects to the Sun (conscious personality, focus in life etc).. so the above is quite a 'weighty' and expansive statement really, which thankfully can not be answered by one configuration in the chart only. Just my opinion.

:)aquarius7000

Shining Ray

09-28-2008, 10:17 AM

I have a Virgo Asc with Mercury in fall in Pisces, I have two modes of operation in conflict. My Virgo Asc wants to analyse, discriminate, and ground my approach to the world by doing mundane tasks, and taking a more productive approach. Whilst my Mercury in fall in Pisces, doesn't think too much about the mundane world and all the little details in life, that by necessity has to be attended to. I tend to forget to pay bills, make phone calls, go shopping for food (my cupboard is empty, send food parcels my way or better still some money :p ). My Mercury in Pisces thinks idealistically, whilst Virgo is in the here and now, and has the ability to "focus" on what has to be dealt with at this moment, not later or tomorrow when Mercury in Pisces finally gets round to the task but then forgets to do it :D .Virgo prioritizes things sorts them into order.

Pisces likes to swim in a stream of unconsciousness, living in a more symbolic world, it analyzes the dream world, Mercury in Pisces can fantasize a LOT but not always make reality out of their dreams and ambitions. Mercury in Pisces can get confused and muddled in thinking, and suffer from a loss of direction in life. Interests lie in the unseen world like psychology and the spiritual realm, or creative writing etc. If an individual with this placement (ruler in fall) works hard at bringing some of this inner tension into mutual balance then we have the practical healer, or the spiritual writer, or dutiful nurse etc. All plays on the Virgo/Pisces theme but it really depends on the rest of the chart for full synthesis.

When the ruling planet falls in it's opposite sign, then it creates the same kind of tension as if in opposition. Take an Aries Asc who's ruling god is Mars a planet which takes immediate action, acts independently, takes care of themselves etc. Now place the ruler of this Aries Asc in Libra, now we meet someone with a conflict between acting independently, and taking other people's needs into consideration. Mars in Libra can be more indecisive in this sign and less direct. Yet Mars in Libra acts very well when acting on behalf of others, like in law firms or any job fighting on another's behalf. Or sometimes Mars in Libra can have others act for them rather than taking action themselves. So again if the individual resolves the inner conflict than we might have here a very good independent advisor or confident negotiator.

I have only covered ruling planets in fall, but you can probably work out how the rest of the detriments and dignities work. All I would say is this type of placement from a personal perspective creates tension that needs release, which can be a productive thing, if the person works at resolving the inner conflicts within their nature.

flea

09-28-2008, 10:47 AM

Hi NS

I have asc gemini, with merc in sag and jup in gem, so there is reception of debilitation. Both are retrograde.

It is an interesting little pattern. ONe my father has with neptune in virgo on the asc and merc in pisces.

We both have a drive towards a destiny in our lives for the greater good. It is kind of similar to how you put it but endlessly more enlightening. There is a pull towards resolution, and also an ability to seek solutions where others just walk straight past. It is the road less travelled, the one that is kind of solitary yet engaged with community on a deep level. Not many people can relate to my way of looking at life, kind of off kilter on a day to day basis. Yet I can reach profound knowledge for some.

What I am saying is that there are gifts in detriment, but they are not easily found, it is a hard path. And they take a long time, developing persistance and patience.

a reasonant flea

MamaMinnee

09-28-2008, 01:26 PM

"My theory is that a person with this debility will never be happy in themselves, with where they are or what they are doing." I feel like that is sort of a broad statement... I agree. ... but, I do definitely feel that no matter what I'm doing, it's not enough. I TOTALLY agree with that! I am a Libra Ascendant with Venus in Scorpio in the 1st, conjunct Jupiter. Venus is in detriment in Scorpio and by residing in the first house. One could say that my Venus aggressively and unnaturally wants the action and intensity of Mars/Pluto and as a result, cannot be content maintaining the status quo, regardless of how favorable it may appear to outsiders. Essentially, I want tomorrow to be better than yesterday or today; and will take action to ensure that is so. That said, I am generally happy and content with myself, where I am and what I am doing.

Night Sky

09-28-2008, 08:11 PM

I agree. I TOTALLY agree with that! I am a Libra Ascendant with Venus in Scorpio in the 1st, conjunct Jupiter. Venus is in detriment in Scorpio and by residing in the first house. One could say that my Venus aggressively and unnaturally wants the action and intensity of Mars/Pluto and as a result, cannot be content maintaining the status quo, regardless of how favorable it may appear to outsiders. Essentially, I want tomorrow to be better than yesterday or today; and will take action to ensure that is so. That said, I am generally happy and content with myself, where I am and what I am doing.
So, Ascendant ruler placed in detriment in the first house is not so bad... the Ascendant ruler is Accidentally dignified...

The accidental dignity of the 1st house appears to be extremely beneficial.

Then we have Venus or Jupiter placed in the 1st house... which can counteract the effect of a Ascendant ruler placed in detriment... Also to note must be Jupiter and Venus in harmonious aspect with the Ascendant ruler.

These are all things which William Lilly ascribes to a long and happy life. Or a life without too much difficulty.

Then there is the issue of mutual reception. This takes a lot of stress out of the debilitated life signifier.

woolgatherer

09-28-2008, 10:46 PM

I have a Taurus Ascendant with Venus in Taurus conjunct the Asc in the 1st. I care a fair bit about what others think, but I'm shy and not good at making friends. I don't think people always relate to me very well when they meet me, which could have to do with Pluto in Scorpio opposing my Ascendant and Venus. I probably haven't often been completely happy with myself and my life, but I'm not desperately unhappy with it either, at least right now.

Night Sky

09-28-2008, 11:23 PM

The_Sundance_Kid

12-28-2008, 12:48 AM

I completely agree with Aquarius 7000

I don't think the statement is right, as there is nothing in the chart that can say alllll of those things.

'a person with this debility will never be happy in themselves, with where they are or what they are doing.'

Happiness often comes from one's mindset, emotional state or point of view- jupiter, moon or mercury.

Where a person is can depend on annny part of the chart and not just the Asc. The Asc ruler might be awful, but the 2nd house might be auspicious, the native might be rich, and Venus might be in Taurus so he loves being rich. He is where he wants to be in this regard.

What a person is doing- well career? life purpose? General satisfaction? Mars? MC? Node?

I guess the main point is that if the Asc only rules one's approach to beginnings, or personal appearances and the impression one creates to others, then a debilitated Asc ruler will create unhappiness only in these areas.

Unless you think the Ascendant rules more than this, but that would require an explanation as to why... I too thought that maybe the Ascendant might mean more but was hammered into submission in the Dumb Question thread (will give link if you want).

If anything might show general dissatisfaction and misery, might it be an afflicted Node or a debilitated final depositor?

RobinC

01-02-2009, 06:23 PM

Yet Mars in Libra acts very well when acting on behalf of others, like in law firms or any job fighting on another's behalf. Or sometimes Mars in Libra can have others act for them rather than taking action themselves. My Mars in Libra in the 7th (Leo ruled) loves the above. I wonder(ed) why I can't advocate for myself like I can for someone else. Also, when someone comes to my aid I feel like all is right with the world.

On the Ascendant topic: Mine is Aquarius, with Uranus (detriment) in Leo and solitary in the 6th (Cancer ruled). I feel like I "am" more outgoing than I seem to be, yet when I make the effort to get out more I find it not very satisfying, and sometimes, depending on where I go, it takes me some time to get "comfortable" again when I return home.

At least for me, there does seem to be a push/pull. Between staying home and going out, I think I like the idea of going out more than the idea of staying home. In practice, though, I like actually being home more than actually being out.:confused:

Uranus trines my MC and opposes Chiron which is in Aquarius in the 12th. I'm new to interpretation, but this seems like a frustrating loop, and feels like it is tied in with the go out/stay in, friendly/solitary tugs that are part of my life. Night Sky, it seems almost textbook for your theory :cool:

freedomlover

01-02-2009, 06:29 PM

The more I think about the statement about the Ascendant ruler being debilitated sentencing a person to an unhappy life, the more I realize there is absolutely no truth to it.

Cases in point:

My oldest daughter has Cancer ASC, ruled by Scorpio Moon in the 4th. The Moon is in its fall in Scorpio, so she must be miserable, right? Wrong! She is one of the happiest, most well-adjusted 25 year old females I know. She has a balanced life with many friends, and a good relationship with her financee and his son. She has several hobbies she enjoys, and has her own home. A perfect life? No - there are the usual bill problems that crop up, and spats with others (after all, she does have a Scorpio moon), etc. But it's a good life. However, she has had probably more than her share of having to deal with death, considering her age. Her grandmother that she was extremely close to died when she was 11. Her boyfriend was killed in a freak car accident when she was 20. Also, she has kept pet rats for years - rats normally don't live much past 2 years of age. Therefore she has had to deal with a pet dying every few months.

My youngest daughter has a Pisces Ascendant, with ruler, Jupiter, in detriment (or something like that)l in Gemini in the 4th house. Again- she has an excellent head on her shoulders for her age (19) and lots of friends and hobbies she enjoys. She is very loving and well-respected by all. Perfect? No - she's a workaholic and has problems with letting people walk on her. But I don't see these as a by-product of her Ascendant ruler being in detriment; but rather from other aspects in her chart ( stellium in Cap in the 10th and Venus in Virgo in the 6th, etc). The biggest effect I've seen from her Ascendant ruler, Jupiter in Gemini, being in detriment is that she has been a member of multiple households since she was about 6. At one time, she had her own fully outfitted bedroom in 3 different houses at once. But that's not necessarily a bad thing - just alot of variety and movement, which she seems to like.

Just my observations,

FL

The_Sundance_Kid

01-02-2009, 07:00 PM

To what degree do you think the Ascendant can 'cast rays' as Alan Leo writes? I my experience only conjunctions and oppositions have been noticeable. I'm not committed to the theory, but I've heard others argue that as the Asc is not a planet, but only a mathematical point, then it should cast no rays. This is similar to the view on the Nodes, where conjunctions and oppositions matter the most, with trines and squares only being relevant in as much as they form a contradiction or complementary interpretation, and not relevant for the square aspect per se.

RobinC

01-02-2009, 07:27 PM

To what degree do you think the Ascendant can 'cast rays' as Alan Leo writes? I'm not sure what 'cast rays' means in the larger sense, but as I have been trying to understand my own chart, I noticed how Uranus seems to have "fingers in" (aspects to) a lot of areas (casts rays?). It didn't seem to be part of a theme of it's own, but rather to influence other areas that had more of a theme. Viewing my Uranus in the context of this topic, as ruler of my Ascendant and in an "unfriendly?" sign, allowed me to see it in a larger context. In that, it highlighted some areas that I recognized in my life.

Is that "casting rays"? I'm learning ...

The_Sundance_Kid

01-02-2009, 07:38 PM

Hi Robin,

I'm so sorry to confuse, I used an archaic phrase when I really didn't have to. All I think ray casting is, is being capable of having aspects. I just like the phrase as it helps me understand the reasoning behind it. The Asc might not be able to 'cast rays' or be capable of having aspects to it, as an aspect requires mutual energy between planets and the Asc is only a point- it can't 'cast' because it is incapable of doing anything.

That would mean that squares, sextiles, trines, quincunxes to the Ascendant have no meaning in themselves. But if a planet was conjunct the DC, or MC or IC and the interpretation was naturally in conflict with the Asc vibe, then you might factor that in, and so forth.

So your Uranus does cast alot of rays, but I'm not sure if the Asc or Nodes can.

RayAustin

01-03-2009, 03:28 AM

Yes Night Sky's point is flawed, mostly by the fact that the rest of the chart, including mutual reception is ignored (and aspects). The rest of the native's chart could have 'beautiful' aspects and planet placements.

RobinC

01-03-2009, 08:16 AM

I'm so sorry to confuse, I used an archaic phrase when I really didn't have to. ....

That would mean that squares, sextiles, trines, quincunxes to the Ascendant have no meaning in themselves. But if a planet was conjunct the DC, or MC or IC and the interpretation was naturally in conflict with the Asc vibe, then you might factor that in, and so forth.

So your Uranus does cast alot of rays, but I'm not sure if the Asc or Nodes can.I see what you mean there. That's what my Uranus looks like too - rays spreading out like a fan, a little out of context with the rest of the chart. It has played out a bit like an overlay in my life, too, like I mentioned - with me liking the idea of being more social more than the fact of doing it, and so frequently being a bit out of step with myself.

Thanks much for the clarification :D, I appreciate that!

Kaiousei no Senshi

01-03-2009, 05:16 PM

About the Ascendant lords. How often are those with the debilitated ascendant lords sick or in pain? How often are those with the dignified ascendant lords sick or in pain? The first house isn't just about ourselves, it's about our health and disposition. The stronger the Ascendant lord, the stronger our innate health is (I suppose you can associate it with the immune system), therefore, people with a well fortified first house are less likely to get sick naturally.

As for the ascendant casting rays, it can't. Other planets can cast to it, though.

The_Sundance_Kid

01-03-2009, 09:14 PM

RayAustin

01-04-2009, 02:17 AM

What would you say of the Asc ruler being square the sun in the 1st house, said sun being conjunct the Asc. Seems to be slightly contrary. A Scorpio Ascendant, full of recuperative strength, with the sun conjunct giving vitality, but the sun being squared by mars in Aquarius? Weak ankles? :P

Mars being cuts, scrapes or anything of the piercing wounding manner. What house is Mars in (that may be which body part as well)? And has this happened? I'm assuming you're talking about yourself. :p

hermetic

01-28-2009, 11:18 AM

flea

01-28-2009, 12:01 PM

I have come to thinking....gem asc... mercR in sag (but in 6th house) that this problematic position has nothing to do with happiness and everything to do with a change that is required during the lifetime. It is like things have been set up in order to facilitate a new way of looking at things from the experience of this lifetime and therefore to quite a strong structural change.

My merc is conjunct SN, which kinda denotes that thinking is someways easy for me. And yes I do the logic thing......yet as I have grown older and closer to my NN in 12.... my intuitive capacities have been developing very strongly and very quickly. Yet the merc in sag.... which sends me out in all kinds of directions is strangely helpful in assissting my intuitive processes... and also my meditive states I might add. It wasn't easy or natural at the beginging...but I can start to sink into sno space no time..... and really enjoy this experience.

hermetic... reminds me of diana... that cancer and aquarius. I also have a friend who has that same position, with a libra sun. has an incredible sensitivity to vibrations and subtle emanations (cancer) everyones' friend (libra), and an ability not to be unduly swayed by emotion and calmly assess all that cancer sensitivity. Really fascinating to experience.

FleaXXX

hermetic

01-28-2009, 01:49 PM

heh, funny, I have Libra Sun too ;) but am yet to come to the point where I am calm and not swayed by emotion, but not detached at the same time. tough.

flea

01-29-2009, 12:23 AM

hmmmm come to think of it, he could lose it from time to time.... I just remember how warm and welcoming he is with so many people!!

Synchronicity still surprises me after all this time!!

FleaXX

Claire19

01-29-2009, 12:31 AM

I understand... but don't you think that sounds awful fatalistic? What would that do to a person if you were reading their chart, and told them that they would never have a happy life because their ascendant ruler is in bad shape?

We must always be wary of generalisations and we dont grow or progress without challenging aspects. The ascendant ruler may be in debility so to speak but what are its aspects???? There are so many more influences to consider besides the ascendant. Our body image is one thing that can be changed a great deal and that belongs to the ascendant to a large degree.
To take away anyone's hope or sense of free will is almost criminal and a counsellor of any competence will never say these things.

Claire19

01-29-2009, 12:34 AM

Mars being cuts, scrapes or anything of the piercing wounding manner. What house is Mars in (that may be which body part as well)? And has this happened? I'm assuming you're talking about yourself. :p

There may be accidents to the ankle shin area due to the rashness and risk risk taking placement of Mars in Aquarius perhaps.

blennus

01-30-2009, 09:24 AM

It is my belief that every facet of one's chart is both a curse and a blessing, and what one makes of his or her natal chart is entirely up to the native. Of course this precludes a belief in free will, so that point of view may or may not be accepted depending on one's stance towards predetermination and whatnot. Also looking at one or two aspects of the chart does not give the whole picture.

Example: In my chart I have Sun in Aquarius (detriment) (in the 6th house no less) Opposition Asc in Leo (it's ruler). Also the Uranus, the ruler of the Sun as well as the Dsc is square to both the ascendant and the Sun. So the ruler of the ruler of the ascendant is square to both what it rules, and what is ruled by that. Does that mean that I am fated to never be happy with my image or what I am doing (especially aggravated by these negative aspects)? No. I'm very happy with how far I've come in life. Of course I'm not satisfied, but I really don't want to be. Satisfaction means stagnation, and once one is no longer looking for self improvement, one quickly degenerates. I am dissatisfied in a satisfactory way. I wouldn't trade my natal chart for the world. Even with all the hell I've been through I wouldn't give it up for anything.

Yes, life has been difficult, but that's part of the challenge, and what makes it worth living, now isn't it? If life was handed to you on a silver platter, the it wouldn't be YOUR life now would it? It would be the life that someone else built for you, and which you aimlessly wander through. What's the fun in that? I take each and every negative aspect and every debility or fall in my chart with thanks, because those are what I NEED. Especially with a Grand Trine in my chart, I wouldn't have come this far without those squares and oppositions. Debility? Not a curse but a blessing, if one works at it.

I admit there was a time when I really hated myself, but I've come to learn that everything has a purpose, and that every strength comes with a price, and that the price is well worth it. Actually I feel that debilities can be very beneficial at times, since it allows for the person with that debility to experience the opposite of the nature of the planet in debility. For example Sun in Aquarius people are in effect forced to find themselves through humanity, Mars in libra people, to find be passionate about harmony, and so on and so forth. While these may be "unnatural" for the planet in question, it also allows for different approach and can be of great strength for the native, should he or she choose to use those influences in that manner. You can think of it as a tempering influence on the planet, softening it. Softer does not mean worse, or in any way bad. It is only bad if you make it such.

Of course that tempering can be a difficult process, and it can take a while before one realizes WHY it is that way. But one thing that astrology has taught me is that every personality, every chart, every human, has a fundamental purpose. Through astrology one can find why they are the way they are, and thus come to terms with oneself. It can also give keys on where to work on and how, if one will but look.

Night Sky

04-14-2009, 04:08 AM

I suppose my original question might be better answered if I asked whether Essentially Dignified or Accidentally dignified, and also in relation to its dispositor and planets in support to it.

To me the Essential dignity is secondary to its Accidental state.

Essential dignity simply means that the planet is in its natural habitat. And as such would be "happy" playing the part that was meant for it.

A peregrine planet is like a singer that is talentless. Accidental Fortune is what makes or breaks his career.

I am, also saying that an essentially debilitated planet, like my Sag Mercury is simply doing things which are unnatural to the nature of Mercury, in Sagittarius it is to find "higher truth" or to get the big picture when mercury is simply the planet of convenience and immediate knowledge. Accidental dignity or debility may mean I am successful in those undertakings or unsuccessful.:)

Claire19

04-19-2009, 03:50 AM

I understand... but don't you think that sounds awful fatalistic? What would that do to a person if you were reading their chart, and told them that they would never have a happy life because their ascendant ruler is in bad shape?

I agree. Detriment or dignity is not really the point. The influence is from the aspects that the ruler makes in the chart, the sign and house it is in and then we can get a handle on it. An unhappy life has to come from much more than that. It is fatalistic to even use those words and I feel, irresponsible.
To make a person feel that they are doomed is reprehensible and very poor astrology. The reason for gaining astrological knowledge is to know ourselves and progress.

Joseph Ledzion

05-17-2009, 10:11 PM

I am just wondering about what it means to have the Ascendant ruler placed in detriment or fall.

My theory is that a person with this debility will never be happy in themselves, with where they are or what they are doing.

I am just curious to see if it makes much difference whether you have Ascendant ruler in essential dignity or in essential debility?

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj86/ledzion427/th_Ledzion.jpg (http://s270.photobucket.com/albums/jj86/ledzion427/?action=view&current=Ledzion.jpg)

It is not very well understood that the ancients took the Almuten of the Ascendant as the chart ruler.

The Almuten is the planet which has the most essential dignity.

For example, I am Capricorn Rising. The domicile ruler of Capricorn is Saturn. Everyone knows that. And everyone also understands that Mars is exhalted in Capricorn. My Ascendant is 23, which happens to be the terms of Mars. The decan I was born under is the Sun.

I use Egyptian Terms, and Chaldean Decans.

William Lilly teaches that, for Essential Dignity, the following point scheme is to be used for judging a planet's natural power:

Domicile Ruler = 5
Exaltation Ruler = 4
Triplicity Lord = 3
Term = 2
Decan = 1

Plugging in my 23* Capricorn Ascendant, (using Egyptian Terms and Chaldean Decans) then we have:

Domicile = Saturn = 5
Exaltation = Mars = 4
Triplicity = Moon = 3
Term = Mars = 2
Decan = Sun = 1

And so classically I am ruled by Mars instead of Saturn! This knowledge was unfortunately lost, but it has returned.

Obviously, I am ruled by Mars and not Saturn because Saturn has only 5 points. But Mars has 6 !

But a further point worth considering is that of the two, Mars is in the proper Sect of the chart, because this is a Nocturnal Chart we're looking at. And since Saturn is out of Sect (at night), it is ambiguous to attempt to gain control of him.

At night, Saturn is very malefic. During the day, Mars is very malefic.

So, I'm definitely taking Mars instead of Saturn.

Now, we have established that Mars rules my Ascendant, and we see that it is in detriment, in Taurus, on the IC.

In order to understand how this effects a person's life -- which is your question -- we have to look at the Triplicity Rulers of the Luminary in charge. Since I am a nocturnal birth, we look at the Triplicity Rulers of my Moon.

Obviously if you were born when the Sun was above the horizon, then you'll look at the Triplicity Rulers of the Sun.

Fire Signs - Day = Sun, Night = Jupiter
Earth Signs - Day = Venus, Night = Moon
Air Signs - Day = Saturn, Night = Mercury
Water Signs - Day = Venus, Night = Mars

This is Hellenistic Astrology by the way, where the loose modern astrology actually comes from.

My Moon is in Scorpio.

Since the Trigon Lord (aka Triplicity Ruler) for the water signs, for a nocturnal birth, is Mars, then Mars governs the first part of my life. Later, the other Trigon Lord, Venus, will be in effect, and Mars will be done ruling my life. When they actually switch, is for another discussion, because the rules are complex. The important thing to realize is that it changes, so your statement about never being happy is not true. (Thank God!) There is hope! If both Trigon Lords are in bad shape however, then this is good....

So -- Mars in Detriment is my Ascendant ruler, and Trigon Lord for the first part of my life, and Mars is powerful placed on an Angle. You'll notice that it is also Hayz, which means that its in the proper sect and polarity.

During the day, you want to have Jupiter, Saturn and the Sun above the horizon in Masculine signs; and at night you want to have the Moon, Mars and Venus below the horizon and in Feminine signs. When they are in this proper order, they are known to be Hayz, and operating at maximum efficiency.

Sect is one of those things that modern astrology has lost, but is so important to understanding a horoscope that it is virtually shameful to not understand it!

Getting to the point -- because Mars, my ruling planet, is a Malefic , strongly placed on an Angle, but in detriment, and is in power by Triplicity for my early years -- what would you expect my early life to be like?

Well, with complete forgiveness and gratitude for all that has been, my early life was utter chaos, filled with violence, lust and suffering. The fact that Mars is Angular means that my rage was deep all the way to my soul. Since Mars is in my 5th house, and rules my 4th, I began having sex at the age of 14 in my parent's home. Quickly I became addicted to lust. I got extremely possessive (Taurus), and soon enough physical pleasure became all that I lived for.

That is the effect of having a Malefic in detriment, as chart ruler, but this is in special consideration that the Triplicity Lord ruling that time period of my life was Mars.

I tell you my brothers and sisters, once Mars, by secondary progression, entered into Gemini when I was 19, I lost the partner with whom I had been seeing all those years. The person to whom my acts of violence were directed to. (On some level, we had agreed this was okay, I suppose.) Taurus of course prefers to have one steady partner, instead of many, less-deep encounters. Mars now had begun to venture through Gemini, which is my 6th house, the house of disease, and so I could have gotten an STD, if I had not been careful. I say this, because I nearly did get one. There is a lesson in this.

But once Venus took over as Trigon Lord, and because Mars had ingressed into a new sign, I sort of "snapped out of it." I realized the danger. And so, my old ways were broken, but I am still forgiving myself for my violent and sexual behavior.

Sure, there are a few "new" (actually ancient) techniques thrown in here, but you can see how accurate they are, and how important they are to understanding astrology.

Thus, the effects of having your ruling planet in detriment are only part of the problem. Take notice of the trigon lord ruling that part of your life, and whatever shape it is in, will determine the quality of your life. Since Mars also ruled by Ascendant, I was in for one hell of ride.

I wish you all the best.

With Love from my heart to Yours,
Joseph Ledzion

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj86/ledzion427/essentialdigs.jpg

If you've never seen this before, it is an essential dignity table. I use the original "Terms," the Egyptian Terms. Ptolemy's Terms are popular, as well, and that is what is shown in this particular table.

The Hindu "Decans" (aka "Faces") are also popular, but I keep it clean, and use the Chaldean.

Joseph

Lost_spirit

05-18-2009, 11:12 AM

I would like to have some examples of people with detrimental Ascendant rulers... or Dignified ones, just to see the difference...

I am not discounting aspects to the Ascendant, nor the Sun, nor planets placed in the 1st. Only put out some thoughts... just to see what people would come up with.

My ascendant ruler Mercury is in my 1st house in Virgo.I don't think it can be any more dignified than this.However it has nothing to do with happiness,I don't feel happy with my life and myself,at least not that much.I don't think it has to do with that,but I'd really like to know too what it means to have a dignified Ascendant ruler.
Maybe the Ascendant is more important than it's ruler?I don't know..

Joseph Ledzion

05-30-2009, 07:06 AM

My ascendant ruler Mercury is in my 1st house in Virgo. I don't think it can be any more dignified than this. However it has nothing to do with happiness,I don't feel happy with my life and myself,at least not that much. I don't think it has to do with that, but I'd really like to know too what it means to have a dignified Ascendant ruler.
Maybe the Ascendant is more important than it's ruler?I don't know..

It is the Triplicities that are about happiness. Domicile is about the ability to be successful. Sect is the planets who are granted power to act on behalf of the Sun or Moon.

I also want to note that 15* Virgo is the perfect exaltation degree. And also that if the Sun is within 17*, the planet is being burned by the Rays, and if the planet is within 8* (although I tend to use 5*) then the planet is Combust and this is the single worst condition a planet could possibly be in.

Kevin Burk says that a planet in fall usually ends up as a disease in the body if it is not properly handled by a person's consciousness.

Joseph

Awakened_Pisces

05-30-2009, 09:34 AM

Since I was born at 2:35 P.M I am a Diurnal birth. Therefore the ruler of my Luminary is Venus.

Not only is my Sun in a Water Sign, but it's in the unfortunate 8th house.

Ironically enough, the Ruler Venus is situated in the 7th house. So it's happy here.

Venus isn't negatively aspecting the maleifcs. However Venus is applying in a Square
to Pluto. You discredited Pluto, instead putting empathsis on the Jupiter, which is indeed
inconjunct the ASC. The Second ruler is to be Mars.

Mars is conjunct Saturn, which is conjunct the ruler of the 7th house that the first Ruler Venus resides in.
Not to mention the Quincunx. Many call it a negative aspect. But it seems to be a positive one with mixed
results. Given Mars's being Quincunx the MH and being the ruler of the MH. As well as being conjunct
the ruler of the 7th. The 2nd part of life may be much, much more enriching then the first.

That brings us to the 3rd and final part of life, which if I am to be correct is the Moon:

Ironically, Modern Astrology is proving it's correctness. The Moon is sextiling Mars, the ruler of the 2nd
life and Saturn the ruler of the 7th house. It is also trining my Ascendent.

Given the aspects, I think my life plays out like this:

1st life: Positive, with some difficulties involving personality challenges and oppostions and doubts.
2nd life: The Highest arc of life, in which few difficulties come before me and I am enriched with blessings.
3rd life: A peaceful or productive conclusion to this life and am ready to recieve the next incarnation.

Lost_spirit

05-30-2009, 11:48 AM

It is the Triplicities that are about happiness. Domicile is about the ability to be successful. Sect is the planets who are granted power to act on behalf of the Sun or Moon.

I also want to note that 15* Virgo is the perfect exaltation degree. And also that if the Sun is within 17*, the planet is being burned by the Rays, and if the planet is within 8* (although I tend to use 5*) then the planet is Combust and this is the single worst condition a planet could possibly be in.

Kevin Burk says that a planet in fall usually ends up as a disease in the body if it is not properly handled by a person's consciousness.

Joseph

Well then this makes perfect sense.Mercury,the Ascendant ruler is in 19*Virgo and the sun is 7*Libra.It could be under the sun's beam.I'm a nocturnal chart,moon in 11th house cancer and sun in 2nd house. The triplicities Mars and venus are both in the 12th house 5* from the ascendant.I consider the 12th house unfortunate,so this explains that I'm not so happy with my life.:o

Claire19

05-31-2009, 04:42 AM

I understand... but don't you think that sounds awful fatalistic? What would that do to a person if you were reading their chart, and told them that they would never have a happy life because their ascendant ruler is in bad shape?
Right on. It all depends on what aspects that ruler makes and where.
We all have some struggles in life and that is supposed to be strengthening and character producing. It is good to be aware of any weaknesses of course. We all have them and our strengths. The 12th house is the karmic house which has been produced from past actions. It can be a means of gaining spiritual insight and to aid others in their struggles with self destructive tendencies. It is also the house of rehabilitation and healing.

astrologer50

05-31-2009, 01:24 PM

We must always be wary of generalisations and we dont grow or progress without challenging aspects. The ascendant ruler may be in debility so to speak but what are its aspects???? There are so many more influences to consider besides the ascendant. Our body image is one thing that can be changed a great deal and that belongs to the ascendant to a large degree.
To take away anyone's hope or sense of free will is almost criminal and a counsellor of any competence will never say these things.

I totally agree, considering my Aquarius Asc ruler is Uranus (cos I'm a modern astrologer that uses Equal house) and is placed in 7th conj 6/7th cusp opp Asc. Uranus is supposed to ruled the nerves healthwise. I have nothing but challenging aspects to Uranus and just one helpful trine MC, square to both luminaries, sun and moon. I consider myself the most laid back placid taurean on this planet, prob not sure how others perceive me, but have never suffered with nerves and never will.

Think this is more Traditional Astrologer v modern and again the aspects are more important than debilities, cos it's always the challenges in life that offer us the most growth. Without the squares, oppositions etc life would be extremely dull, uninspiring and boring. I too think it's irresponsible to give reading of a negative slant, cos we all know you can find something positive, even when explaining the 'challenges' it's all about how your say,explain and words these matters. So in other words tact and avoid using words like debilitated, problems and unhappy life...

Claire19

06-02-2009, 02:02 AM

So you are conceding now that I have point.

You wouldn't tell them the truth by all means.

But if they worked it out for themselves say... Create a support group for ascendant ruler placed in detriment. : )

Once again there is more to a chart than just one aspect or influence of the ascendant. We are given challenges to overcome and to be stronger not to fall victim and to feel hopeless and fatalistic.

GreenMist

06-20-2009, 10:19 PM

Isaac Newton regarded by many as the greatest scientist in history had Saggitarius in Mercury.. whats up with that? :whistling:

Frank

06-20-2009, 10:36 PM

When it comes to delineating people, I try my best not to use "stronger" or "weaker" when it comes to Essential Dignities and Debilities. I tend to use "comfortable" or "uncomfortable" instead. People are able to adapt to their chart's dignity or lack thereof - such as the Newton placement above.

I've been doing a study on Mensa-level intelligence for a lecture to be presented at ISAR in Chicago in August. Guess what the most statstically significant Mercury placement in the charts of the Mensans is? Mercury in Pisces!

When it comes to horary, electional and mundane, the "stronger" and "weaker" placements are more clear cut.

Lost_spirit

06-21-2009, 06:32 PM

I was wondering,what happens when the Ascendant ruler,either weak or strong,is afflicted by the transit of more than 1 malefics,let's say Mars and Saturn, in a certain date or time period?I know this is a transit question,but it's not irrelevant to the topic and I don't want to open a new thread on this.

Voyager

02-07-2010, 07:43 PM

I am a person with Sun in the 8th house and Sagittarius ascendant. In my case Jupiter is in 7th house in Gemini and heavily aspected (an square) by Saturn in 4th house. The result: I am 44 and never had a girlfriend.

Well, this is not a good prospect to be happy, but one thing... In one point of my life I had to make a choice, between to continue being unhappy or to take a change in my life. I decided to be happy, I told myself. "I dont need a reason to be happy".

Hapiness is a choice of your will, if your happiness relies on external reasons or conditions you will be happy or unhappy depending of those always changing conditions.

BOOGY99

02-07-2010, 11:10 PM