Global Financial System on the Brink

[jamiescott]

Does anyone have any imput on an astrological reason for this crisis, potentially, the biggest thing effecting us collectively in our lifetime so far? I have only had a quick glance at the Ephemeris so far, all I have come up with is Saturn opposing Uranus, that's still 5 degrees away. What methods would one use to analyse this question?

:confused: Jamie

[RayAustin]

Does anyone have any imput on an astrological reason for this crisis, potentially, the biggest thing effecting us collectively in our lifetime so far? I have only had a quick glance at the Ephemeris so far, all I have come up with is Saturn opposing Uranus, that's still 5 degrees away. What methods would one use to analyse this question?

:confused: Jamie

I was looking at a very long and astrological article, that was saying why, I'll try to pull it up!

[RayAustin]

I was looking at a very long and astrological article, that was saying why, I'll try to pull it up!

Found it! :)

http://www.astropro.com/forecast/predict/2008-all.html

Though it tends to revolve around us a lot.

[jamiescott]

be of good cheer and sound mind: reduce debt, stock up on essential commodities and other productive assets. Remember that the vast majority of people survived the last Great Depression. The lower your debt, the higher your stockpiles and the broader your network, the greater the odds that you’ll get through the current crisis too. Conversely, plunging ahead with "business as usual" is a prescription for certain disaster. Buy a house? Court a disaster. Take out a loan? Why not grab an anvil and jump off a bridge? I realize we can’t stop living and wait for things to get sorted out. But surely we can realize we’re in a hole, and at least stop digging. from:
http://www.astropro.com/forecast/predict/2008-09.html

Hey ra-divinington, can you lend me some money so I can buy some gold?

:rolleyes: Jamiescott.

[Vista]

I suggest you all read the article the "Grand Cross and The Great Depression" By Robert Gover. http://www.robertgover.com/

He is an economic astrologer. His other articles are very interesting too.
Vista

[jamiescott]

It is because the next Uranus-Pluto square is due to come within orb around mid-2008 that I predict the coming great depression will be evident by then. It will begin with trouble in the stock markets and financial system and spread to impact the whole economy. Stock markets can crash without taking down the whole economy--if they recover reasonably soon after a crash. What I look for, based on astrological markers coinciding with past crashes, is a series of crashes beginning in late 2006 and climaxing in the summer and autumn of 2008. This series of crashes is likely to trigger a transformation of the world's monetary system. It is shaky now, with the dollar poised to be replaced by the euro as the world's currency of choice.

From http://www.robertgover.com/

Thanks Vista, have you got some cash for me too?

Jamiescott

[EJ53]

This thread by Theo might add something here :-

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11406

EJ:)

[LionKing]

Yea... I said something to that fact a few days back. I noticed that the New Moon was in Virgo with Sat in it's early side. Knowing that Sat is in trine with Jupiter something was going to happen. Jupiter left retro earlier this month. Then like what is taught... New Moon gave it's promise in the Full Moon... Banks, Foreclosures, Stocks, list goes on... Like I have read Jupiter and Saturn are your business planets. I think I and everyone else just learned a lesson. V/r LionKing

[Culpeper]

Eclipse charts are critical for predicting and evaluating any kind of crisis. The prediction section of Tetrabiblos by Ptolemy is the primary source for this. The last two lunar eclipses have pointed directly at this current financial mess. I have posted in several other threads about it.

There may have been an objection raised that the last eclipse did not effect the USA because it was not observed there. The awkward Robbins translation of Ptolemy seems to say this, but even there you will read of several alternatives. The Greeks will not leave you with a dilemma of logic.

Examining eclipse charts for many years, I have found that if the eclipse occurs in a sign signifying the country or if it occurs in a sign where one of the lights was located at the time of founding, there will be an effect even if the eclipse is not visible. The August 2008 lunar eclipse was in the same degrees of Aquarius that the Moon transited on 4 July 1776; it is very much connected to the USA although not observed there.

When interpreting these charts you must use mundane house meanings. The meanings from natal astrology are similar but will not give you a good delineation. Perhaps next week when I have time I will write a predictive post using coming eclipses.

[RayAustin]

from:
http://www.astropro.com/forecast/predict/2008-09.html

Hey ra-divinington, can you lend me some money so I can buy some gold?

:rolleyes: Jamiescott.

Haha. That article is unfortunate though, for a person of my situation--and lots of the many teenagers and twenty somethings and future college students and present graduating that graduate in debt! If we are not rich, we almost have no choice but to sign loans that will handicap us for the next few years of our life... I already ******* that part up, so I'm counting on divine providence to get me out of it... :) Thankfully I'm getting a high paying job soon that will help me out while I prepare to go back to college.. Maybe thats the jovian luck..

Also I can't imagine the dollar being replaced by euro, that would be legendarily humiliating to Americans, and extremely unlikely it would be adopted, at least by a republican president I think. It would be a massive wake up call.. I can see too many people protesting against it though.

[jamiescott]

I've heard that the USA and Australia have the highest debt per capita in the world. Who is lending us the money we can't pay back?
Jamiescott

[gesso]

surely pluto entering capricorn is having some influence over the transformation of the markets?

[RayAustin]

I've heard that the USA and Australia have the highest debt per capita in the world. Who is lending us the money we can't pay back?
Jamiescott

the faulty banks.

[Inside Out Orange]

I've heard that the USA and Australia have the highest debt per capita in the world. Who is lending us the money we can't pay back?
Jamiescott

From what I read yesterday, it is your children and their children ...

[Inside Out Orange]

surely pluto entering capricorn is having some influence over the transformation of the markets?

From a UK perspective, my feeling is that the years while Pluto has been in Sagitarius we have seen big inflation of the housing market (properties trebling in value while inflation has been about 2-3%); we've seen fat cat CEOs of companies being overpaid; all the financial accounting scandals.

It seems to me that Pluto in Capricorn will be levelling that, and probably tightening up even further.

[jamiescott]

For anyone interested in Consteallation rulerships:

Currency = Argo Navis, Eridanus, Leo, Corona Borealis.
Trade = Argo Navis, Eridanus, Libra.
Oil = Cygnus, Pisces.
Gold = Draco.
Stock Exchange = Leo, Pisces.

[Derestanne]

I had forecast more "Enron-Like" Scandals for 2008 (see my Website http://www.freewebs.com/nsmeditation ). I would say that what is happening right now qualifies perfectly as an "Enron-Like Scandal". While we're on the subject, count me in with all the voices who are saying that we do not need more Welfare for the Rich on Wall Street!

I am telling all of my most well to do Clients that unless they want to risk everything, the best course of action is to procrastinate - do nothing at all until Mercury goes direct after October 15th. I fully expect the Markets to be madhouses until then!

I credit the Jupiter - Pluto Conjunction in Capricorn for this situation. Big business attempts to expand while in the contracting sign of Capricorn. It is a bad year for excesses and greed and the crisis will continue for now. :(

[jamiescott]

Oh, I just spent what little savings I had buying Lihir Gold Limited at $2.75 per share. Fingers crossed!

[gesso]

What is happening now is a 'revealing' of the excesses that have gone on in the recent past. Accountability. Things are being shown for what they are...down to the truth etc.
These arent new issues/scandals etc...i like what i read on tribe.net about this...
"pluto in capricorn= the economy wears no clothes" :D

[BobZemco]

surely pluto entering capricorn is having some influence over the transformation of the markets?
Yes, that's true. I have economic data going back to the 13th Century.

I'm not sure what you mean by "markets" though. The media is very ambiguous in the use of its terms which drives me up a wall. It is incorrect to say "inflation" because there are 4 (actually 5) different types of inflation. Some of you might say "big deal" but it is a big deal.

Each form of inflation has its own unique cause and it logically follows that it has its own unique solution. If it's Wage Inflation, then the best course of action is Wage & Price Freezes. That's what FDR did and that's what Nixon did and it worked (although I don't agree with it I don't have an alternative solution either). Are rising wages driving up the prices of goods and services? No way. So we know it isn't Wage Inflation.

Fiscal Inflation would have driven up the price of cars 40 years ago, but not today, but it is responsible for houses being over-valued, still that's a minor concern in the grand scheme of things.

Currency Inflation isn't an issue right now, and it can be easily managed, except for special cases.

The problem now is Cost Inflation. The solution is for consumers to stop consuming, but when your economy is 72% consumer spending, a reduction in consumption results in immediate and severe recession.

If you understand that, then you understand how important it is for the US to be in Iraq and how the US cannot fail. If it does, it will never be able to position itself to block both Currency and Cost Inflation in the future which will destroy the US (I'm predicting the US will be out-maneuvered by China and fail).

If you're talking about the stock markets, nobody really cares, unless you're an investor. No stock market crash has ever caused a recession/depression in the US.

In fact, the US had two major depressions (one of them was called the "Great Depression") before stock markets ever existed in the US.

If you're talking about the commodity markets, yes Pluto in Capricorn wrecks havoc. I suspect it has to do with Capricorn being cardinal and passive combined with the transformative and sometmes destructive action of Pluto. Because it's in the US 2nd House, in addition to stripping wealth, it will radically alter people's values and belief system.

We saw this in the 1760s. It's global only in the sense that more than one country is affected, and always those with Capricorn on the 2/8 Axis. So Russia had problems but Prussia did not. Some of the German city states and principalities did, some didn't. Some of the Italian city-states did, some didn't. England did but France didn't. The Netherlands was affected only slightly. Spain and Portugal did fairly well throughout the whole thing.

We'll see the same thing again. For every country affected, there'll be one or two that aren't. The US will be affected until Pluto moves into the 3rd House in 2024/2025.

[skywatcher1221]

I suggest you all read the article the "Grand Cross and The Great Depression" By Robert Gover. http://www.robertgover.com/

He is an economic astrologer. His other articles are very interesting too.
Vista
Thanks for this link -- very informative! According to him, the astrological ingredients are present with Uranus and Saturn activating the U.S. Mars-Neptune square. Pluto's transit through the U.S. 2nd House (Sag rising chart) adds another drastic element: we could see a replay of the Great Depression.

[jamiescott]

I agree Skywatcher, maybe worse.

[Theo]

Does anyone have any imput on an astrological reason for this crisis, potentially, the biggest thing effecting us collectively in our lifetime so far? I have only had a quick glance at the Ephemeris so far, all I have come up with is Saturn opposing Uranus, that's still 5 degrees away. What methods would one use to analyse this question?

:confused: Jamie

Hi Jamie. Mundane methods are best used. The outer planets, and the transits of the Dragon's Head and Tail over decades leading to this time. The orb between Saturn's opposition to Uranus is already active, as the orb can be as wide as 12 degrees (or more) depending on the sign and angle. This financial crisis started back in the 1980s with deregulation, and reflects the transit of Saturn in particular. However, the current crisis has much to do with the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in Taurus, and Saturn's ingress into Cancer (sign of the house) in 2003.

Saturn's transit through Cancer, Leo, and now Virgo is reflective of the wild speculation in financial markets. Last year's Saturn-Neptune opposition was clearly a role player, as was the Jupiter-Saturn fire trine of 2007, which resulted in the Panics of 2007 and 2008.

Uranus' transit is also playing a role. The last time Uranus was in Pisces was in the 1920s, just prior to the Great Depression when Uranus transited Aries in the 1930s. Uranus is ending a period it began in 1928 which closes in 2011 when it remains in tropical Aries. These are major times for the world, and great changes and mutations are ahead for the whole planet in the new decade just ahead.

The coming transit of Jupiter in Aquarius, Pisces, Aries and Taurus from 2009 to 2012 will hold some hope for the world's economy, and I strongly advise those reading this to make economic and life plans using the positive transits of these years to prepare for the more difficult years of the mid-2010s, which features inflation, and a lowered standard of living for millions of people considering the transits of Saturn's coming transit in Scorpio and Sagittarius from 2013-2018 and the long-running Uranus-Pluto square of the 2010s.

This makes the next four (4) years critical for many people to make adjustments, and to look for opportunities to form into positive groups where bartering, and good neighbors are essential. Expect to adjust to being around people of positive, creative and positive interests. This will greatly help to offset the more harder transits ~ especially of the outer planets ~ during most of the next decade of the 2010s.

[Inside Out Orange]

What is happening now is a 'revealing' of the excesses that have gone on in the recent past. Accountability. Things are being shown for what they are...down to the truth etc.
These arent new issues/scandals etc...i like what i read on tribe.net about this...
"pluto in capricorn= the economy wears no clothes" :D

I agree. The 'markets' have been excessive over the past 10 years. Everything is overpriced. Pluto in Capricorn is just getting rid of that excess. However I think it will then put further squeeze on to the point were things to do get to the bare bones. I believe it is the nature of Capricorn to be limited and risk-averse beyond the norm.

Take the UK housing market as an example. In 1995, at the bottom of the market, average house price was about £60,000. If you did a simple increase at 5% today you'd expect that house to be worth about £120,000. Reality is that at the top of the market last year it was more like £180,000. That's 50% extra.

Why did it happen? Predominantly because banks and other lenders looking to make big profits allowed borrowers to take out bigger and bigger mortgages. In the past they would never have allowed more than 3.5times salary; I know of people with 6-times mortgages. That was fine while interest rates were low, but now they're going up and people are threaten with repayments or no-one wanting to buy their homes they are scared and looking for someone to help them. Pluto in Capricorn is beginning to bring that accountability.

Additionally estate agents urged homeowners to push up their prices (to give them more fees) and the homeowners would theoretically be able to buy a bigger house with their greater equity. Again these groups of people are being hit for their excesses. For not being willing to say "No".

What seems to be forgotten is all the first time buyers who could not afford to buy homes. It is in their interest to see house prices fall. And the small businesses that have exercised good business practice deserve their share of the large corporates business if those fail. Yet there is clamour for government bailouts. We seem to want to have a capitalist economy that is only built on high market prices. The true principle is that everything has its rightful price and the market will determine it.

Interestingly I saw this article on BBC this morning ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7635327.stm ... that says France is not being affected by credit crunch. They have retained their accountability.

[Hades]

Does anyone have any imput on an astrological reason for this crisis, potentially, the biggest thing effecting us collectively in our lifetime so far? I have only had a quick glance at the Ephemeris so far, all I have come up with is Saturn opposing Uranus, that's still 5 degrees away. What methods would one use to analyse this question?

:confused: Jamie

this thread needs some intense discussion. the uranus opposition to saturn was all i could see as well which makes me wonder why this alignment is so much more debilitating than the saturn trine jupiter in earth signs which is also happening... it doesnt make much sense...

maybe this is a good thing? in the long run...

[jamiescott]

Thanks Hades, looking at the news on TV I'm sure there will be more intense discussion. I'm guessing the Uranus/Saturn opposition is more debilitating for 3 reasons:
1. The planets involved, Uranus being more malefic than Jupiter.
2. The aspects, opposition being harder than trine.
3. The opposition of Saturn/Uranus has a longer time effect.

[Theo]

I agree. The 'markets' have been excessive over the past 10 years. Everything is overpriced. Pluto in Capricorn is just getting rid of that excess. However I think it will then put further squeeze on to the point were things to do get to the bare bones. I believe it is the nature of Capricorn to be limited and risk-averse beyond the norm.

Take the UK housing market as an example. In 1995, at the bottom of the market, average house price was about £60,000. If you did a simple increase at 5% today you'd expect that house to be worth about £120,000. Reality is that at the top of the market last year it was more like £180,000. That's 50% extra.

Why did it happen? Predominantly because banks and other lenders looking to make big profits allowed borrowers to take out bigger and bigger mortgages. In the past they would never have allowed more than 3.5times salary; I know of people with 6-times mortgages. That was fine while interest rates were low, but now they're going up and people are threaten with repayments or no-one wanting to buy their homes they are scared and looking for someone to help them. Pluto in Capricorn is beginning to bring that accountability.

Additionally estate agents urged homeowners to push up their prices (to give them more fees) and the homeowners would theoretically be able to buy a bigger house with their greater equity. Again these groups of people are being hit for their excesses. For not being willing to say "No".

What seems to be forgotten is all the first time buyers who could not afford to buy homes. It is in their interest to see house prices fall. And the small businesses that have exercised good business practice deserve their share of the large corporates business if those fail. Yet there is clamour for government bailouts. We seem to want to have a capitalist economy that is only built on high market prices. The true principle is that everything has its rightful price and the market will determine it.

Interestingly I saw this article on BBC this morning ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7635327.stm ... that says France is not being affected by credit crunch. They have retained their accountability.

Although the housing crunch is a major part of what is happening, transits confirm that what has been at the heart of the financial meltdown as been credit default swaps used by major investment and commercial banks resulting in trillions of dollars of hedged funds that includes many hundreds of billions of dollars of toxic mortgage loans that were hawked by predator CEOs and their minions in order to gain huge bonuses for each loan or re-applications (re-finances) on over-priced properties in the U.S. and England, for the most part.

Saturn's transit through Cancer from 2003 to 2005, and its transits into Leo from 2005 to 2007, and its current transit through the mutable sign of Virgo has been a major reason for the real estate crisis. Saturn depresses prices, forces them down, and Jupiter inflates. At this time, both planets are in earth trine, and direct (w/ Saturn retrograde by Dec. 31, 2008) so we will continue to see those in power attempting to strike a practice balance to save the world financial system.

How this works out means a serious readjustment for the next decade in the world economic system and sad times ahead for the poorest of nations. We are about to witness a revolutionary climate ahead for the 2010s based on the outright theft of trillions of dollars and pounds by very greedy groups, some of whom are already being investigated, and soon to be hunted down for their crimes against humanity.

[Awakened_Pisces]

The Uranus-Saturn opposition and Pluto in Capicorn couldn't be better signs. It practically screams wake up! And if we do, we can limit the effects of these
dissapointing transits. Because that's the heart of astrology. To be able to get a better reading into one's own self and take one's own self into the direction he/she best fits.

[flea]

As the equinox happen sun squared pluto at the end of sagittarrius. Now I think this is a sign of things to come.
I see pluto as bringing the shadow into consciousness. So pluto and sag held up a mirror to our belief systems, and was found wanting. Fundamentalism dogmatism nilism, and causing others hurt over your own inadequate belief systems. If you are causing hurt then I think that indicates an inadequate belief system a wake up call to sort it out face it.

Good old cappy, real steady grounding influence. To me it is the most grounded out of the earth signs, the one I think of most when I work with a gaia concept. Maybe this is when our fears of security, and money become tested.

We all have fears about safety security about the earth provided a stable base for life. You could say that those with the biggest bank accounts have the biggest fears.... hoarding.

The financial systems are measured by growth, they have to keep increasing markets, which gets difficult when you reach the peak of food production in 2001 approx. The great depression was caused by the same financial system we have today. The solution to the depression was selling more stuff. The market has just expanded into the future so far that it is unstable. There is no balance in the system if the credit is given with little gauruntee of return in the future.... but it is fine in the now until the future catches up with us.

Oh gold and silver I heard the markets are being supressed intentionally.... for how long who knows and for what reasons. And the FBI is investigating the banks in the US.

All global markets are linked so it is a global crisis. It is a good time to evaluate how much debt you have and what kind of events will challege you in the future. What have you invested in.... if you have common or garden super...... then like me you have probably unknowingly invested in a few wars around the globe...

Anyway those that have been through poverty before and probably the most creative and less fearful of moving through the changes. Just as the old religions still exist the old market will still exist...... just with more awareness about the choices we have and the consequences of how far we become involved in the financial markets.

A resonant flea

[Inside Out Orange]

The financial systems are measured by growth, they have to keep increasing markets, which gets difficult when you reach the peak of food production in 2001 approx. The great depression was caused by the same financial system we have today. The solution to the depression was selling more stuff. The market has just expanded into the future so far that it is unstable. There is no balance in the system if the credit is given with little gauruntee of return in the future.... but it is fine in the now until the future catches up with us.

That's really interesting. I think I may have to read up on the Great Depression etc. Might be able to get ahead of the curve on where things will go next.

Re: the very first line ... perhaps we should be measuring things by happiness? I (and many others) worked for a very large bank that made over $10 billion profit in a single year; yet they were still cutting jobs. Perhaps, as a planet, we ought to be ensuring that everybody can feed and clothe themselves. I think someone referred to it as a "Sustenance Economy". I'd like to hope that Pluto's travels over the next 30+ years (Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces) might allow that to happen.

[Theo]

As the equinox happen sun squared pluto at the end of sagittarrius. Now I think this is a sign of things to come.
I see pluto as bringing the shadow into consciousness. So pluto and sag held up a mirror to our belief systems, and was found wanting. Fundamentalism dogmatism nilism, and causing others hurt over your own inadequate belief systems. If you are causing hurt then I think that indicates an inadequate belief system a wake up call to sort it out face it.

Good old cappy, real steady grounding influence. To me it is the most grounded out of the earth signs, the one I think of most when I work with a gaia concept. Maybe this is when our fears of security, and money become tested.

We all have fears about safety security about the earth provided a stable base for life. You could say that those with the biggest bank accounts have the biggest fears.... hoarding.

The financial systems are measured by growth, they have to keep increasing markets, which gets difficult when you reach the peak of food production in 2001 approx. The great depression was caused by the same financial system we have today. The solution to the depression was selling more stuff. The market has just expanded into the future so far that it is unstable. There is no balance in the system if the credit is given with little gauruntee of return in the future.... but it is fine in the now until the future catches up with us.

Oh gold and silver I heard the markets are being supressed intentionally.... for how long who knows and for what reasons. And the FBI is investigating the banks in the US.

All global markets are linked so it is a global crisis. It is a good time to evaluate how much debt you have and what kind of events will challege you in the future. What have you invested in.... if you have common or garden super...... then like me you have probably unknowingly invested in a few wars around the globe...

Anyway those that have been through poverty before and probably the most creative and less fearful of moving through the changes. Just as the old religions still exist the old market will still exist...... just with more awareness about the choices we have and the consequences of how far we become involved in the financial markets.

A resonant flea

I agree Flea. The best way out of the financial mess is what is called defiect spending and lots of it. Cutting spending is the wrong way to go, as it would contract the movement of money. It would be like cutting off the water supplies for flowers already dry & running low on water. Increase the water flow to keep the flowers fresh.

Selling more, and spending more, especially under the coming transits of 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012 will be key in cutting down on the harder transits of the mid-2010s, especially the coming T-squares of 2014, and the long-running Uranus-Pluto square of the 2010s.

[jamiescott]

This makes the next four (4) years critical for many people to make adjustments, and to look for opportunities to form into positive groups where bartering, and good neighbors are essential. Expect to adjust to being around people of positive, creative and positive interests. This will greatly help to offset the more harder transits ~ especially of the outer planets ~ during most of the next decade of the 2010s.

Theo, I have heard similar to this from someone with a non astrological background. Always nice to get conformation. To add to this, I have feelings that atleast in my part of the world, it is important to remain mobile. Gifted people have told me that Aboriginal people will be invaluable in knowing where to go due to their strong connection to certain frequncies of vibrations.

[Theo]

Theo, I have heard similar to this from someone with a non astrological background. Always nice to get conformation. To add to this, I have feelings that atleast in my part of the world, it is important to remain mobile. Gifted people have told me that Aboriginal people will be invaluable in knowing where to go due to their strong connection to certain frequncies of vibrations.

Being not only mobile, but active within communities as well. One of the things I've been very dismayed in seeing is how many in the baby boomer generation have given up on their ideas of strong communities, exchanging their ideals for personal greed and materialism at the expense of helping to create more positive community. The current financial crisis is part of this greed and rampant materialism and "getting rich" at all costs, and at the expense of younger generations.

The real challenge will be to build nw communities out of the wreaks of the past, and to seek connections between creative people. Another problem will be the tens of millions of elderly baby boomers who have not prepared for their own retirements because they've been in denial for many years about aging. They can no longer hide the reality that all people age.

The transits of 2009 and 2010 are really transition year transits preparing all of us for the next decade of the 2010s, which will be challening. A major key is to not become weighed down by the barriers erected by the post-WWII generation and to navigate this generation by working on solutions to the 20th century issues they've not resolved and brought into the 21st century. This is very important as it contains a truth ~ that one generation does not have the right to force on another to pay for the older generation's faults and mistakes, and its greed.

The cities will become new battlegrounds for youth as they seek to take control of their own destinies. This is proper as tens of millions of baby boomers have had their time in the sun, controlling all the public and private institutions, and getting the best paying jobs at the highest pay while younger generations have had to settle for much less, waiting for the time to live their lives and to prove themselves in society. The time is nearly here for this to happen, and what we are witnessing now is massive generational change taking place.

[jamiescott]

Bring it on, I'm ready!

[RayAustin]

Bring it on, I'm ready!

So am I ... :) I actually can't wait to be around 30 years old, eventually. :eek:

[flea]

Maybe you misunderstand me theo.......

The system depends and is defined by growth, but it uses very unethical means to expand. There maybe a new creativity coming to the way we exchange goods, and more decentralisation where communities have subset sytems of goods exchange.

When all the power is concentrated in few hands, and those hands get greedy..... we all suffer.

I dont think the choices will stay in the hands of those that control the financial system, the energy will go elsewhere and the system we have today will fall into slow decline. There is no trust in the system anymore, and that fact alone makes it unviable. But as humanity we have a faith in our creativity and capacity for abundance.

a reasonant flea

[Theo]

Maybe you misunderstand me theo.......

The system depends and is defined by growth, but it uses very unethical means to expand. There maybe a new creativity coming to the way we exchange goods, and more decentralisation where communities have subset sytems of goods exchange.

When all the power is concentrated in few hands, and those hands get greedy..... we all suffer.

I dont think the choices will stay in the hands of those that control the financial system, the energy will go elsewhere and the system we have today will fall into slow decline. There is no trust in the system anymore, and that fact alone makes it unviable. But as humanity we have a faith in our creativity and capacity for abundance.

a reasonant flea

I understand you, however, what is happening is far more sinister than most people know. You are correct about the fact that there is no trust in the system, and that creativity and capacity for abundance is the way to go.

What I see happening is a precursor to what is about to take place during the next decade of the 2010s, and the harder transits of the outer planets in the 2010s. The time now reflects what we've seen via Uranus' transit in Pisces, the same sign it transited in the 1920s before entering Aries in 1928, thus helping to spark the Great Depression, as Uranus moved through that barren fire sign.

This particular financial crisis has also been sparked by Saturn and Chiron, along with the positions of the Dragon's Head & Tail since 2001, and with Jupiter's fire trine to Saturn in 2007which helped to spark off the Panics of 2007 & 2008.

These times are influenced by the transits, as is usual, and people, those who are blind to the transits, are mostly affected; however, some of them are also able to affect all of our lives as well. There is a strong challenge coming to those in power ahead as the Saturn-Uranus opposition, and the planetary positions of the early and mid-2010s build in strength.

This is a very good time to prepare for the changes ahead and to form groups with like-minded people of positive, common interests to help one another to form new alliances to face the challenges in the years and decades ahead.

[planetmotion]

Hello all, would just like to add my tuppence worth to this discussion:

Firstly, the late and great Charles Harvey taught it was the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions that defined financial markets. Of course, every other interesting aspect plays a part, but the twenty-year cycle of these two great planets, he said, sets the trend. How it works is if Jupiter and Saturn are in conjunction, it represents a high; ten years later when in opposition, it is a low. It is a simple wave formula. The last conjunction was in May 2000 when a serious conjunction of no less than 8 planets were in Taurus, the zodiacal sign of banking. These planets were then in direct square to Neptune, which led a bull market directly up the (Taurean) garden path, with lies, deception and debt (enron, anderson, etc etc etc) becoming the norm to vaguely hold things together (not). If one were to throw in that other Neptunian negative; drugs and alcohol, that many a market is played by people on a Neptunian emotional roller coaster, fuelled by coke, coffee and lord knows what else, its extraordinary that the current banking system has lasted this long! What's also extraordinary is that this system has been lauded as a rational standard, while the artful science of astrology is derided.

More on that Neptune square however: It’s a well-known fact that cocaine is not just used by daft rockers to strut their funky stuff, it is now found in various government buildings and stock markets. The problem with this ghastly drug, apart from it inflating people’s egos and turning them into interminable bores, is that it destroys a part of the brain, the amygdala, which enables a sensible assessment of long-term risks. I am not implying this is the whole picture by any means, or that all bankers have burnt-out brains. But it does make sense as to how certain people operate they way they do and how incredibly bad risks are taken blithely .

So, imo, even as the bail-out (not a good name during a mercury retro) has been rejected for the moment, it can still be a good thing for the ordinary people that Uranus (Saturn) and Pluto are now forcing change, especially as we approach the nadir of this Jupiter-Saturn cycle; besides, it is not too long before we haul ourselves out of the pit and up again towards the next conjunction at late Capricorn, early Aquarius. The idea is to get something more real and stable, less illusive, so that a positive Taurus influence can GREEN the garden to bloom and blossom from Wall Street to Main Street as we wave up to this next mighty conjunction in 2020 with integrity in tact.

My second point is how we, as astrologers, have to now be careful that we don’t set the world into a major panic about what we think might happen, now, or during the upcoming grand cross. Crashing markets and climate-change notwithstanding, there are a lot of gloomy minds out there - yes, even in our beloved profession - spreading fear into a collective already confused. So our job is, as it always has been, to inspire, raise energy, encourage wisdom, and spread the cosmic love vibration, so that we can support each other if and when ‘the suffering of change’ sets in.

What I mean is that because some might be in danger of losing faith in how humanity can renew its’ energy from a non-sustainable power base to one of sustainability, astrology might inadvertently be part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now, more than ever, with Uranus and Neptune in mutual reception, we must generate hope and faith in massive doses, and never give up coming from the heart so that we can learn from and forgive certain jackass traders et al, and get on with our lives with love and light…
:)

[BobZemco]

The great depression was caused by the same financial system we have today.

No, it was caused by the actions (or lack of action) by the government.

The US was already in a recession by January 1928. The recession worsened over the next 24 months through 1st Quarter of 1930. The October 1929 market crash had no bearing on anything.

With revenues falling and job losses mounting, the Repubican controlled Congress enacted what was then the largest tax increase in history. That sucked whatever money was left out of people's pockets. In June, Congress enacted the Smoot-Hawley Tariff to protect jobs. That resulted in other countries passing similar protectionist tariffs that shut down world trade and caused more job losses.

By 1931 the banks started failing one by one and neither the Federal Reserve nor the congress acted to stop it. That caused a credit crunch which put more people out of work and wiped out the progress that the Republian-controlled Senate and now Democrat-controlled House had made in getting the economy going.

By 1932, states were ordering bank "holidays" to stop the runs on banks. The Federal Reserve started to bail out the banks but it was too late. When FDR was inaugurated n April 1933, his first act was to close all banks.

The economy started to recover again, but those gains were wiped out by the first round of New Deal legislation.

The economy had recovered to just 8% under the 1927 GDP when the next round of New Deal legislation crashed the economy in the 1st quarter 1937 causing a -32% drop in GDP.

Later in 1937, the economy started to recover as the US began producing war materiel for the Nazis, Japanese, Soviets, British, French, Italians and others (people forget Ford owned Mitsubishi which prodduced tanks and engines for aircraft).

Had it not been for WW II, the US would have stumbled along for another 10 years until the end of the 1940s.

The mistakes the government made were raising taxes, enacting protectionist tariffs, and failing to pump money into the banking system to prevent its collapse.

Once the credit dried up, it caused massive business failures. You'll note that many companies emerged unscathed during the Great Depression, like P&G, General Electric, Kroger's and many others. That's because they kept (and still keep) about 1/3 of their assets in cash. Cash is king. You can do anything with cash. Becaue they had a lot of cash, the credit crunch didn't affect them.

You'll see that again. As credit shrinks, those companies that have massive cash reserves will survive, those that don't won't make it.

[flea]

Hi Bob,

I can see your point but I am not sure about your catagorical no....

"The mistakes the government made were raising taxes, enacting protectionist tariffs, and failing to pump money into the banking system to prevent its collapse."

From what you say.... the market was already in trouble if the gov failed to pump more money into a system.

I suppose I am coming from a more radical point of view that questions the whole idea of making profit a sacred ideal, as well as the need for an ever increasing market share.

Theo.... thanks for clarifying....I understand your premise very well.

a reasonant flea

[jamiescott]

Oh, I just spent what little savings I had buying Lihir Gold Limited at $2.75 per share. Fingers crossed!


Closed today at $2.80:53:

[skywatcher1221]

No, it was caused by the actions (or lack of action) by the government.

The US was already in a recession by January 1928. The recession worsened over the next 24 months through 1st Quarter of 1930. The October 1929 market crash had no bearing on anything.

With revenues falling and job losses mounting, the Repubican controlled Congress enacted what was then the largest tax increase in history. That sucked whatever money was left out of people's pockets. In June, Congress enacted the Smoot-Hawley Tariff to protect jobs. That resulted in other countries passing similar protectionist tariffs that shut down world trade and caused more job losses.

By 1931 the banks started failing one by one and neither the Federal Reserve nor the congress acted to stop it. That caused a credit crunch which put more people out of work and wiped out the progress that the Republian-controlled Senate and now Democrat-controlled House had made in getting the economy going.

By 1932, states were ordering bank "holidays" to stop the runs on banks. The Federal Reserve started to bail out the banks but it was too late. When FDR was inaugurated n April 1933, his first act was to close all banks.

The economy started to recover again, but those gains were wiped out by the first round of New Deal legislation.

The economy had recovered to just 8% under the 1927 GDP when the next round of New Deal legislation crashed the economy in the 1st quarter 1937 causing a -32% drop in GDP.

Later in 1937, the economy started to recover as the US began producing war materiel for the Nazis, Japanese, Soviets, British, French, Italians and others (people forget Ford owned Mitsubishi which prodduced tanks and engines for aircraft).

Had it not been for WW II, the US would have stumbled along for another 10 years until the end of the 1940s.

The mistakes the government made were raising taxes, enacting protectionist tariffs, and failing to pump money into the banking system to prevent its collapse.

Once the credit dried up, it caused massive business failures. You'll note that many companies emerged unscathed during the Great Depression, like P&G, General Electric, Kroger's and many others. That's because they kept (and still keep) about 1/3 of their assets in cash. Cash is king. You can do anything with cash. Becaue they had a lot of cash, the credit crunch didn't affect them.

You'll see that again. As credit shrinks, those companies that have massive cash reserves will survive, those that don't won't make it.
Good analysis but one small correction. FDR was inaugurated in March, not April.

[BobZemco]

Hi Bob,

I can see your point but I am not sure about your catagorical no....

"The mistakes the government made were raising taxes, enacting protectionist tariffs, and failing to pump money into the banking system to prevent its collapse."

From what you say.... the market was already in trouble if the gov failed to pump more money into a system.

I suppose I am coming from a more radical point of view that questions the whole idea of making profit a sacred ideal, as well as the need for an ever increasing market share.


What market?

The stock market? The stock market is nothing more than one of several dozen means a company can use to raise capital.

By law, only publicly traded corporations can sell stocks. Private corporations, limited partnerships, limited liability partnerships, limited liability companies and general partnerships cannot sell stock, yet they do raise capital, and they do so through one of the several dozen other methods.

So what's your point? You don't really need stock markets. The US didn't even have one until the late 1890s, yet corporations flourished before then.

Companies do not make profits off of the stock market, they raise capital. Companies make profits by selling goods and services. Investors make profits buying and selling stock.

As you can see, the two are unrelated. The inability of a company to raise capital wouldn't necessarily affect its ability to make profits, but it would affect its ability to make greater profits, by making it harder to expand and increase the amount of goods and services offered.

No stock market crash in the history of the US has ever caused a recession or depression.

The 2000 tech stock "crash" was caused by a reallocation of investments into other economic sectors, as it became understood that the capabilities of those technical innovations were hugely distorted and wouldn't pan out. It did not cause the 3 quarters of recession starting in January 2001. That was caused by decreased production upon realization that the Y2K fantasy was just that, and the end of "Millenium Fever" when the spending frenzy by consumers died out.

The "Dot.com crash" didn't even phaze the economy. Once again, people blew the capabiities of the dot.coms way out of proportion. Only a fool would have believed that consumers would abandon "brick-and-mortar" to make all of their purchases on-line, in addition to the fact that the dot.coms were $Billions in debt and had zero cash reserves. Smart investors pulled the plug and got out early. The Joe McTraders in their McMansions who listen to internet gurus and talks show pundits got taken for a ride they so richly deserved.

The stock market didn't blink during the two quarter recession in 1989.

The 1987 Crash didn't phaze the economy either. That was merely a reallocation of resources as many saw the writing on the wall that defense spending was going to get cut. Computer automated panic trading did the rest.

The 1978 Carter mini-Depression didn't affect the stock market, although it did take a dive, but that wasn't related to the economy. The dive was the reallocation of investments as most of America's linen and textile industry was off-shored. After that, the stock market soared while the economy floundered over the next 6 years with 11% unemployment and a nice 13% prime rate.

The 1960 recession wasn't caused by the stock market. In fact, the stock market soared during the recession then crashed to 535 (or 20.5%) in 1963 long after the recession ended.

The economy was already in recession in 1928. The stock market crash in 1929 was an adjustment after stocks soared as the economy collasped deeper into recession.

Over the next 13 years through 1942, the stock market and the economy went in different directions. As the economy grew worse, stocks performed brilliantly. As the economy got better, stocks crashed.

For example, by January 1942, the economy had not only fully recovered, but it had increased a whopping 20+% over the 1927 GDP before the US entered recession, yet stocks continued to tumble month after month through the first 8 months of 1942.

There's no relationship between the stock market and the economy, and I fail to understand this contant compulsive obssession with the stock market by ordinary people, most of whom don't even invest in the stock market.

Who cares what the stock market does? It doesn't reflect the economy. If you make your living and pay your mortgage through profits made from the buying and selling of stock, I can understand why one would be concerned, but other than that, it's irrelevant.

If you're talking about the commodities markets, that's a different story.

Commodities are in high demand with a limited supply. The prices of commodities rises and because they do, costs increase for the businesses and industries that deal in those commodities and the cost increases are passed on to consumers in the form of price increases. The price increases do not increase a company's profits, rather it merely restores the original profit margin and because of that wages become stagnant.

You can reduce consumption to reduce prices, but in the US were 72% of the GDP is consumer spending, that means recession.

As it stands, you can only marginally increase the supply of commodities, and to so would be at the expense of other commodities. In other words, you're merely robbing Peter to pay Paul.

You can divert soy beans from bio-diesel production to food production to decrease the price of food, but then you'd only serve to increase the price of oil and oil-related products, so you don't win.

You can plow under the cocoa (chocolate), sugar cane and coffee plantations in west Africa to grow rice, corn and yams again (like they used to grow in the 1970s), but that would only create shortages of chocolate, sugar cane and coffee, resulting in price increases. You don't win there either. That's one of the reasons Africa was starving in the 1980s, because US and British corporations replaced food crops with non-food crops. Africa was actually a net-exporter of food prior to that.

Cost Inflation is the reason why the US economy is growing so slowly, and why the US will ultimately enter a recession.

This is why you need a bail out:

close to three quarters of U.S. ethanol plants, or 123 of America’s 160 operating ethanol plants, are at risk of being shuttered in the coming months, according to Citigroup analyst David Driscoll. Small and mid-sized ethanol plants are in trouble due to a record-setting spike in corn prices, bumped up by the Midwest floods and increasing demand. This news comes after Citigroup downgraded all the major publicly traded ethanol players including Archer Daniels Midland, BioFuel Energy and VeraSun Energy.
Plans for new ethanol plants are being put on hold or canceled, too. Since May we’ve counted 11 planned plants suspended (check our map, embedded above). The credit crunch is making it increasingly difficult for proposed plants to get financed. Heartland Ethanol announced last week that it has pulled the plug on seven planned ethanol plants. Walker R. Filbert, the president of developer Heartland Ethanol told the News-Gazette that the company was unable to get bank loans to finance the plants. Filbert said: “We’ve been digging out from [the credit crunch] for 10 months for all businesses, let alone ethanol plants.”

Business and industry operates on credit. They need credit to purchase their inventories. Without credit, they cannot buy what they need to maintain production, and without production, Americans won't have jobs.

By the way, if you have a shortage of ethanol because of plant closings or cut backs in production, you'll see gasoline prices increase.


Your retailers also purchase on credit. That's what keeps the shelves stocked with goods to buy.

If you walk into a Wal-Mart one day and the shelves are practically bare, you'll understand why. Wal-Mart can't get credit to purchase inventories.

[flea]

Bob,
If it raised some issues that needed to be discussed.... hey great. However you leave little space in you posts for me personally to feel inclined to discuss, proably just a moon sq something.

a reasonant flea

[EJ53]

There's no relationship between the stock market and the economy, and I fail to understand this contant compulsive obssession with the stock market by ordinary people, most of whom don't even invest in the stock market.

Agreed Bob - but this time, in the Uk, the sensationalist media created a link in the minds of all us Mr/Ms/Mrs/Miss Averages. The rapidly falling share prices of "Northern Rock" were reported on TV and in newspapers as "evidence" that it was about to go under - so the small investors withdrew their savings immediately to re-invest in a "safer place" - the run on the bank caused it to collapse - the collapse created fear that other banks were about to do the same (evidenced by falling share prices) - the fear created a run on banks generally - the banks stopped lending to preserve their cash to fund the run - trading companies were unable to borrow to purchase supplies - those companies began to struggle (as "evidenced" by falling share prices) - and the economy began to suffer.

My view is that media-generated "fear" created an indirect relationship between the stock market and the economy. And the fact that this fear stems from ignorance, mis-information and irresponsible reporting concerns rather than comforts me.

EJ:)

[planetmotion]

EJ, my sentiments exactly. There is enough hallaballoo by a media desperate to feed daily panic and drama without us adding to it; no matter how much we have read or think we know, the most important lesson for any astrologer is to come from the heart and (according to Melanie Reinhart) to "know thine ephemeris": The fact of the matter is that the crash of '29 fell into the low of the Jupiter-Saturn financial cycle, in a very wide opposition moving into exaltaion and home sign respectively, with exact oppositions throughout '30-'31 = in keeping with the cycle. We are now at a Jupiter Saturn trine (admitedly we also have very simlar and tricky Saturn-Uranus-Pluto action to contend with, and Richard Tarnas says that collective cycles can be felt within a 15 degree orb, which I am inclined to agree; this still doesn't mean that a change has to be feared); the currently benefcial Jupiter-Saturn aspect should encourage a helpful resolution - so let's maintain some semblance of calm and courage.
Ever the optimist,

[pallas]

The Crisis has been created by the corruption of government officials who have had their "head in the troughs" feeding off of our taxes and wanting more, more, more.

It started with the "need" by the government with legislation to provide housing to people who couldn't afford a house to begin with, then it was expanded to people who could afford a modest house but that the mortgage loan system said,
"why you can buy a much bigger house than that, and we can show you how
you can afford it"...0 percent down...hah!!!! The old saying nothing in this life is for free!!!! Adjustable rates means that they ADJUST...what they thought only for someone else they adjust? People aren't loosing the homes they invested in, they never had anything invested in them to begin with..."no money down"..they were just renting, and the rent kept going up!

I agree that the line up is close to the "great depression" but we don't have
the grand cross thank God..but here is the kicker..it is what happens next
that will make or break us and I don't just mean the USA.

This is a world problem...look at the bank failings in the UK..we owe China a huge amount,and we need to get off foreign oil and the russian exchange is down 50%. Look at some of the aspects before both WW1 and WWII...the world is gearing up for another confrontation, hopefully we can ride out the current storm to be ready for the next big one.
Congress needs to fix the financial lending laws not just throw money at the
problem like they do with everything else ...
the choice here is Chaos/Change (uranus) vs Restriction and Boundaries (saturn)...and don't forget Pluto in the sign of Government (Capricorn) opposing Cancer (children and housing).

We have become LAZY...letting others decide for us what we want this country to be...it is starting another Amercian Revolution...remember
the last one - Taxation without Representation? Looks like the same
arguement to me again...now we will have to wait and see what the "Amercian People" choose to do about it...:mad:

[Theo]

EJ, my sentiments exactly. There is enough hallaballoo by a media desperate to feed daily panic and drama without us adding to it; no matter how much we have read or think we know, the most important lesson for any astrologer is to come from the heart and (according to Melanie Reinhart) to "know thine ephemeris": The fact of the matter is that the crash of '29 fell into the low of the Jupiter-Saturn financial cycle, in a very wide opposition moving into exaltaion and home sign respectively, with exact oppositions throughout '30-'31 = in keeping with the cycle. We are now at a Jupiter Saturn trine (admitedly we also have very simlar and tricky Saturn-Uranus-Pluto action to contend with, and Richard Tarnas says that collective cycles can be felt within a 15 degree orb, which I am inclined to agree; this still doesn't mean that a change has to be feared); the currently benefcial Jupiter-Saturn aspect should encourage a helpful resolution - so let's maintain some semblance of calm and courage.
Ever the optimist,

Yes, I agree, however, time is short. Jupiter enters tropical Aquarius in Januar 2009, and conjoins the Dragon's Head in February 2009... this makes early 2009 important before the Lunar Nodes change quality from fixed to cardinal in August 2009. When Jupiter enters Pisces in January 2010, and begins its conjunction to Uranus, and opposition to Saturn in Virgo in that year, time will have almost run out without immediate resolution of the major worldwide financial and credit crisis now spreading throughout global markets.

The current Jupiter-Saturn earth trine is helping and should help to stablize things doing into December 2008, after the November general elections in the U.S., and the change of administrations; however, the major problems will continue to be housing, credit, and liquidity, along with the increasing power of the Federal Reserve, the huge amounts of fiat money injected into world economies, and the coming inflation/deflation problems I foresee in the decade of the 2010s.

[BobZemco]

Good analysis but one small correction. FDR was inaugurated in March, not April.

March 4, 1933. He died in April. I always muck that up.

[BobZemco]

I agree that the line up is close to the "great depression" but we don't have the grand cross thank God..but here is the kicker..it is what happens next that will make or break us and I don't just mean the USA.
I don't see what the Grand Cross has to do with anything.

I don't use the Sibley Chart because it's garbage, but if you're talking about the Saturn/Jupiter/Saturn/Uranus thing, that was in August 1930.

What's the connection?

The US had been in a recession for almost 3 years at that point and the GPD had dropped to -36%, so what's the big deal about the Grand Cross?

That would be like in May 2004 going, "Oh, look Mars conjunct Uranus = 9-11."

A day late and a dollar short.

This is a world problem...look at the bank failings in the UK..we owe China a huge amount,and we need to get off foreign oil and the russian exchange is down 50%.
You can never get off of foreign oil. The US has plenty of heavy and intermediate grade oil, but practically no light oil. Halt foreign imports and you'll be relegated immediately to 1968 sans 90% of the consumer goods you know and love. There's about 45 Million to 50 Million jobs tied to light oil in the US.

No light oil, no drugs. Kiss ibuprofen and acetomeniphen good-bye. You'll have to make do with aspirin made from heavy oil. Kiss liqui-gel caps and gel caps goodbye. Watch the Vitamin industry go down the tubes.

Watch the pharmaceutical industry in the US collapse and watch your loved ones die a slow painful death. No light oil, no Lipitor, no Pravachol, no statins period. Your loved ones with high blood pressure and/or heart problems will be keeling over left and right. No Type II Diabetes medication, no allergy medication. Say good-bye to it all.

The processed food industry in the US will collapse. All those foods that have artificial colorings and/or artificial flavorings will be history. The shelves in your grocery stores will be practically empty.

Say hello to big boxes of powered laundry detergent, because liquid laundry detergents like Tide, Gain, All, etc are made with 6 petro-chemicals derived exclusively from light oil, just like all the other products I mentioned contain petro-chemicals refined exclusively from light oil.

You have about 2 dozen refineries in the US that refine nothing but light oil from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Venezuela and elsewhere, and they don't produce a single gallon of gasoline. It's all petro-chemical.

The Shell refinery in Saint Rose, Lousiana refines 30,000 barrels of Bonny Light (from Nigeria) every day and doesn't produce a single gallon of gasoline. It's all organic alcohols for your food, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals and liquid laundry detergents.

Better be careful what you wish for.

And the Moscow Exchange? Who cares? $1 = 25 Rubles. That's better than it was at $1 = 37 Rubles. When $1 = 10 Rubles, you'll rue that day.

Look at some of the aspects before both WW1 and WWII...the world is gearing up for another confrontation, hopefully we can ride out the current storm to be ready for the next big one.
I don't use the Sibley Chart, but my chart is a Sagittarius-rising and it shows the same thing about 2028-2036, pretty nasty. It's similar to the transist for the US Civil War. Uranus opposition Ascendant with Neptune in the 4th and Pluto still in the 2nd and Saturn in the 5th.

US Civil War Pluto was in the 5th House (with Saturn in the 9th).

Congress needs to fix the financial lending laws not just throw money at the problem like they do with everything else ..
Not gonna happen. Neptune just retrograded into a hard aspect with natal Venus, and will aspect again in January.

Maybe March when Uranus aspects Venus. If you're looking for real reform, it'll probably be a few years.

[rubyelixir]

I had forecast more "Enron-Like" Scandals for 2008 (see my Website http://www.freewebs.com/nsmeditation ). I would say that what is happening right now qualifies perfectly as an "Enron-Like Scandal". While we're on the subject, count me in with all the voices who are saying that we do not need more Welfare for the Rich on Wall Street!

I am telling all of my most well to do Clients that unless they want to risk everything, the best course of action is to procrastinate - do nothing at all until Mercury goes direct after October 15th. I fully expect the Markets to be madhouses until then!

I credit the Jupiter - Pluto Conjunction in Capricorn for this situation. Big business attempts to expand while in the contracting sign of Capricorn. It is a bad year for excesses and greed and the crisis will continue for now. :(

Personally I think I am affected oppositely.

Yes,This is scary. I'm going to school now full time and I inherited my Dad's house which needs work. I applied for a HELOC before the merc retro but the bank is supposed to answer me tommorrow (they've alredy approved me for 1/2 I just want the rest assured) I am praying I get it since my skylights are cracked and its raining cats and dogs!

I have Cap stellium in the 4th house! AND it starts with venus at 3 degrees , I've never really had any money in my adult life (I'm 46) & I've never borrowed this much or owned a house (its completely paid for, but the prop taxes are insane , like $13,000!) so I think this Pluto is on my good side for duration, since this is a very different (and better ) life for me ...

Should I wait to sign until after retro or grab what I can now?(btw, transaction would not be complete, i.e. money actually available, until after merc is direct)

[Inside Out Orange]

Should I wait to sign until after retro or grab what I can now?(btw, transaction would not be complete, i.e. money actually available, until after merc is direct)

I believe the general advice is never sign any legal documents while Mercury is retrograde (because communication can be somewhat misinterpreted).

[Derestanne]

And I will be happy to second that! Don't sign ANYTHING now Ruby! Not if they are threatening to put bamboo under your fingernails!

This is one of the nastiest Merc Retrogrades that I can ever remember! One more week to go and my computer is counting it down backwards! :mad:

Sign This,

Derestanne the Mercury Retrograde Hater!

[jamiescott]

Can we say it's not on the brink now, it broke.:eek:

[Awakened_Pisces]

Let me elaborate, it was always broke. It took a big enough, stupid enough spender(Bush) to show that.

[SteamyWeenie]

hey has anybody else read something about this shift thats supposed to occur in like a superpower or something?
i dont quite remember, but i read that the 9/11 attack bringing down the towers was the day the power shift begun, and now theres a building (bank ?) being built in beijing i think which is supposed to tower well above the world trade center, making china the new super power of the world...


this global financial thing might be part of it no?

i was going to leave u guys without the article but i couldnt do that lol

im googling as i type



here's one

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/2008-the-year-a-new-superpower-is-born-767522.html



yea im having not the best of luck, but hopefully that site was a little helpful

:34:

[Derestanne]

China is full of problems of its own. If the US Economy is caving in now from internal corruption wait until China's economic problems start to make themselves fully known!

Although Europe is also suffering from the downturn in the US Markets, I can plainly see that the European Union is really the one Region gloating over the prospect of replacing the USA as the World's economic superpower.

And while we are on this entire subject, Astrologer Phyllis Atwater predicted way back in the 1970's that the World Economy would enter the deflationary period of it's normal Economic Cycle by the late 1990's. I am inclined to believe that various Governments collectively conspired to delay and hide the beginning of this natural deflationary cycle because inflation suits their selfish interests while deflationary periods favor the citizens of the world.

The result has been that rather than make a gentle transition from an Inflation driven economy to a Deflation driven economy, the World Economy "fright train" has had the brakes slammed on hard and the rail cars are currently flying airborne all over the place. How utterly outrageous and irresponsible!

[Theo]

China is full of problems of its own. If the US Economy is caving in now from internal corruption wait until China's economic problems start to make themselves fully known!

Although Europe is also suffering from the downturn in the US Markets, I can plainly see that the European Union is really the one Region gloating over the prospect of replacing the USA as the World's economic superpower.

And while we are on this entire subject, Astrologer Phyllis Atwater predicted way back in the 1970's that the World Economy would enter the deflationary period of it's normal Economic Cycle by the late 1990's. I am inclined to believe that various Governments collectively conspired to delay and hide the beginning of this natural deflationary cycle because inflation suits their selfish interests while deflationary periods favor the citizens of the world.

The result has been that rather than make a gentle transition from an Inflation driven economy to a Deflation driven economy, the World Economy "fright train" has had the brakes slammed on hard and the rail cars are currently flying airborne all over the place. How utterly outrageous and irresponsible!

Although this is part of the equation globally, there are other, more deeper reasons for this current crisis. Much of it was manipulated and organized to achieve some neferious goals of groups who believe they alone have the right to dictate to nations how they should direct their own futures.

There is a movement towards a "one world government" that for decades has been gathering steam in order to direct nations to follow one direction. Where that leads, of course, is up for discussion, but often, not with the populations at large, who are seen as being cattle by those "free traders" who would lie, steal and cheat in order to achieve a "better world." The question is: for who?

The European Union has just added $2.3 trillion as a whole to countries and banks in several EU countries today.

See ~ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081013/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_meltdown

The country of Iceland is going broke and is reaching out for any help it can get for its failed banks. Iceland was forced last week to take over three of its biggest banks. Iceland also shut down its own stock market and gave up any attempts to save the Krona ~ its falling currency.

See ~ http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081013/bs_nm/us_financial_iceland_2;_ylt=AvbbNb1krkw9SjZ9P3K2mj xv24cA

The world transits, particularly Pluto's last transit through Sagittarius before entering the southern solstice point of Capricorn in late November, and the first of several Saturn-Uranus oppositions on Nov. 4, 2008, is leading the Earth into a new era of uncharted waters when it comes to economics, finances and world society for the 2010s.

As a astrologer, I see battlelines being drawn between the "haves" and the "have nots" and this is not good for the health of the world as we draw closer to the decade of the 2010s, and even the decade of the 2020s.

Much will have to be accounted for concerning the very widespread corruption of those who drew entire economies of nations into this global fianancial mess, and thses groups are not positive in their outlooks for the planet in my view. The transits confirm that unless people throughout the world organize to discover the truths of what has been taking place, that the next decades will be fraught with danger for everyone.

I see hyperinflation as a problem during the mid-2010s when Saturn transits Sagittarius. This will be a direct result of the massive amounts of fiat money pumped in the many trillions into the banks and treasuries of entire nations on the planet.

The transits of the outer planets, especially Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Pluto will lead to some hard, and unfavorable aspects in the 2010s as populations around the world will reject the corruption and seek the heads of those responsible for the world recession in the 2010s. People are waking up, too late, to the fact that rampant materialism and corruption that has taken place right under their noses.

[Awakened_Pisces]

I have to disagree, Theo. Waking up is always a good thing especially in this case. "Better late then never". We cannot allow this World to fall into their hands. Not only because it is morally wrong and incorrect to control other people. But if that happens. The right to choice. The right to happiness, all of that will be taken away. We must fight. This world was a gift to us Humans. How we treat it is our responsibility. How we treat ourselves is our responsibility. So, this group which threatens to destroy the freedom of choice and ultimately freedom of life. Cannot be allowed.

We must fight. For the future to dream. For the future to happiness, for a world where we truly are one. Not a world where we are forced to become.

[rubyelixir]

And I will be happy to second that! Don't sign ANYTHING now Ruby! Not if they are threatening to put bamboo under your fingernails!

This is one of the nastiest Merc Retrogrades that I can ever remember! One more week to go and my computer is counting it down backwards! :mad:

Sign This,

Derestanne the Mercury Retrograde Hater!

I'm a-waitin....2 days to go....
how bout that stock market????? I think they should change the name from "Dow Jones" to "Six Flags Over the USA"

[Theo]

I have to disagree, Theo. Waking up is always a good thing especially in this case. "Better late then never". We cannot allow this World to fall into their hands. Not only because it is morally wrong and incorrect to control other people. But if that happens. The right to choice. The right to happiness, all of that will be taken away. We must fight. This world was a gift to us Humans. How we treat it is our responsibility. How we treat ourselves is our responsibility. So, this group which threatens to destroy the freedom of choice and ultimately freedom of life. Cannot be allowed.

We must fight. For the future to dream. For the future to happiness, for a world where we truly are one. Not a world where we are forced to become.

In order to "fight" one must first be "awake" and frankly, I have not seen this yet, and by the time many people will awake, it will have already been way too late...

Now, there's hope, mind you, yes, but with experience and length of days you will see the truth of what I've said here. People first have to wake up and this means seeing time as it is and not something "outside" of themselves, which is how the majority of the world sees time itself.

Try a test: ask people to name the order the months in sequence, and see if they get it right. I've got it right, and know what "time" it is always. In order to be awake, one must first "awaken."

MARCH - 1st month
APRIL - 2nd month
MAY - 3rd month
JUNE - 4th month
JULY - 5th month
AUGUST - 6th month
SEPTEMBER -7th month
OCTOBER - 8th month
NOVEMBER - 9th month
DECEMBER - 10th month
JANUARY - 11th month
FEBURARY -12th month

[Awakened_Pisces]

This boggles my mind. How did this come about? When did we run a system that had March as the first month?

[Inside Out Orange]

This boggles my mind. How did this come about? When did we run a system that had March as the first month?

I'd assume it comes from primitive times when the year 'started' in Spring at the Vernal Equinox in late March. Must be at least back to the Romans who I believe named August after the emperor Augustus Caesar, and September being the seventh month, December being the tenth.

[Theo]

I'd assume it comes from primitive times when the year 'started' in Spring at the Vernal Equinox in late March. Must be at least back to the Romans who I believe named August after the emperor Augustus Caesar, and September being the seventh month, December being the tenth.

There's nothing "primative" about those times. Anyone who studies astrology must surely know that the calendar system used by most people today is a false system. It continues in its use. That is primative.

The first month of the year is in mid-March, with the vernal equinox. March 20-21 is noted as the start of the true year, the Astrological Year, with Aries being the First House. This is the true calendar, which classical astrologers have used since antiquity. This calendar was changed by the Romans (Julian calendar) and further altered by the Vatican. It was never returned to the truth of the seasons of the Earth. However, all astrologers know that the "New Year" does NOT begin on January 1 (Sun at 10-degrees Capricorn) but the true New Year begins in mid-March, when the Sun reaches 0-Aries and the Earth is at equinox.

Look up the meanings of the words of the month, and you will see that this is true. For instance, "Sept" means the number (7) seven; and "Oct" means the number (8); "Nov" = number (9); "Dec" = number (10)

The True Calendar, in order, goes:

March - 1st month (Aries)
April - 2nd month (Taurus)
May - 3rd month (Gemini)
June - 4th month (Cancer
July - 5th month (Leo)
August - 6th month - (Virgo)
September - 7th month - (Libra)
October - 8th month (Scorpio)
November - 9th month (Sagittarius)
December - 10th month (Capricorn)
January - 11th month (Aquarius)
February - 12 month (Pisces)

[BobZemco]

This boggles my mind. How did this come about? When did we run a system that had March as the first month?

For about 9,500 years or so. The week was originally Sunday through Saturday, with the sabbath being on Saturday. The Roman Catholic Church changed that. That also meant changing Good Thursday to Good Friday. The Church changed a lot of dates in order to coopt "pagans" into their belief system and gain authority.

I think Kepler and Solar Fire have star maps, so if you're uncertain of a date calendar-wise you can use the star maps to get a date. Some events were clearly marked by planetary aspects and so noted in written texts.

[The_Sundance_Kid]

I think economics is a very fluid and reflexive phenomenon, so I do think it particularly difficult to analyse through astrology. Especially with regards to bulls and bears. For instance, if there really was an important link between Jupiter and Saturn, then a conjunction between the two is pretty regular, and should be repeated around the world continuously throughout history.

But then maybe it becomes more important in some charts than others, depending on the country used and the signs and aspects in that particular decade. But even if this were true, Jupiter and Saturn are actually trine now... and in the UK we're officially in recession so this has been happening for 6 months. Add to that the degree of speculation given to any political chart as representing a country and I think we have the potential for all sorts of confusion.

It is also difficult to think of this subject without acknowledging that a great deal of the energy a chart might represent can be expressed through the masses and not in actual facts. Public attitudes, cultural changes etc might all be representative of astrological factors. Economics is reflexive, stock prices can effect consumers and investors, and vice versa. A company with a plunging stock price might be less able to get credit, will not be able to raise new capital, etc. Even commodity markets not only determine the price, but also determine the choices of produces, which in turn determines the price. It is a constant circular feedback loop. And these processes all interrelate over a long time such that it is hard to pin point the whens and wheres.

So Bob said the grand cross happened much later than the actual stock crash, which in turn happened after the recession. And I think he's right, if we go by dates then one may not be able to pinpoint the aspects to the problems at the time. We have to accept these limitations. Maybe the grand cross showed an epoch or crystalising moment, the nadir even, if not in a purely economic way then in a political and psychological one.

How are we to process all of these factors? I have no idea.

If you take the current crisis, some may see it as a sign that the system is inherently flawed. I disagree. I think it shows that the current system is mostly right but needs some fixes and alterations. Commercial democracies have been the most successful and stable nations, bringing unrivalled prosperity to the masses. Every now and then investments may have been unwise and unregulated, but these are the growing pains of an ever emerging globalised society.

I don't think this really has to do with redistribution of wealth- to think of Africa and the rest, they need much more political stability than anything else.

Corruption might be another big factor, but this has been the plague of man since whenever. Men in a democracy are no less susceptible to being corrupt than in other forms of government. It is the culture one grows up in that creates a corrup administrator.

EDIT Jupiter and Saturn were in trine. They're out of orb now.

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Moving on, I think the most important astrological symbol for 2008 would have to be Pluto moving into Capricorn. As I am no good at looking at charts of countries I can only speculate on it in abstract or pure form, and I think this might increasingly be useful given that the world is becoming increasingly globalised.

Now I believe astrology is better in hindsight than it ever can be in foresight. But even in 2005 I had noted that in 2008 there would be the beginning of great turmoil in financial institutions because of the Pluto Capricorn thing. And pretty much everyone on any astrology forum I've seen has said the same thing for about as long.

In hindsight though we might go even further. I think the orthodoxy was that Pluto in Sagittarius was about die-hard religious fanaticism, the distinction between freedom fighter and terrorist, and worries over excessive idealism being dangerous. Wars between countries thousands of miles away, wars between cultures was a common motif.

In hindsight we might also talk of Pluto in Sagittarius bringing an increase and over-speculation in risk. An acceleration of transactions at a pace that should have been more cautious. I don't know much about the institutions, but I'm thinking of derivatives and other risk markets. And investment banks blurring the boundaries between main street mortgage banks and uber-being derivative and complex financial instruments. The two should have been merged with greater care. Now if we think of Taurus as Main Street and Scorpio as Wall Street does this show up in the emphemerides? Well Venus is far too transitory for us to tell.

Now where did this risk taking come from? De-regulation in the 1980s? Someone said this was a major mistake, but it was not wholly bad. It helped revive the economies of most nations that took it up. Thatcher and Reagan. Even the end of the Cold War. In the latter 1980's Neptune was in Capricorn, and Pluto moved into Scorpio. Now if we think that Pluto and Scorpio are Wall Street, then they would become much more powerful at this time. And I think they were more powerful. Western economies, especially the UK become much more focused on the financial services economy as it became the big earner. But I think Wall Street and the essence of capitalism lies in a relaxed government attitude, which did not regulate much.

I think de-regulation might be contrary to Capricorn, a sign I think of as beaurocratic and with a hint of authoritarianism to it. So if Neptune was in Capricorn then we were maybe over-idealising the relationship between governments and markets. We thought we had struck a perfect balance when in fact the 1980's, although de-regulating markets as a whole, were also a time of increasingly authoritarian government. Thatcher tried to destroy local politics. Maybe in America the Federal government became more powerful as well?

The dichotomy of privatisation might be a good example. Industries run by government were sold off to make money, but instead of being run by government they were instead heavily regulated, making it difficult for them to breathe.

So now Pluto is in Capricorn, the illusion is being unravelled. The unregulated investment banks, after being overly speculative in their transactions and swaps (Pluto in Sagittarius) have exposed the underlying illusion that governments can be laid back whilst allowing a liberated financial services economy to thrive.

And while Neptune might show change stemming from (sometimes false) romanticism, I think Pluto shows change stemming from necessity. So now these financial institutions have become toxic it is becoming clear that the derivatives and sub-prime mortgage risks are spread in a rather unfathomable way, hidden in the whole system. I think that now Pluto has shown the need, the long Capricorn transit will show how an economic crisis can cause greater political change. As I think Capricorn is slightly tinged with authoritarianism, I think Pluto might bring out this quality. And the multi-billion currency bailouts the government is lauding over us all might also be an example.

Now I haven't mentioned Uranus at all, but I'm sure he is playing a role too. But I think his role occurs more through aspects. And I'm sure Saturn and Jupiter can aggravate or mitigate certain flashpoints.

So how might this project into the future? Well Neptune has been in Aquarius, while Pluto was in Sagittarius, so we must look to what we think Neptune has been doing there, what idyllic illusion is he creating, that Pluto might be forced to sweep up after?

Some guesses include: the illusion that we are a functioning democracy with rights etc, when in fact Pluto in Sagittarius show's us increasingly at each other's throats and in Capricorn will show the increasing lack of citizen power. But then Neptune will be in Pisces. Gees, this story never ends...

Two cents :)

[Ariel Moonshadow]

I'm new here, but this question caught my eye. I subscribe to Ray Merriman's MMA Cycles report, which comes out monthly. He also has a weekly preview on his website. He is a financial analyst who uses mundane astrology to forecast trends in the stock and commodities markets worldwide. He has an excellent article on his website, MMA Cycles, which explains the current financial problems, which he forecast in 1996. He does an annual forecast for each coming year.
The following is a quote from his 2007 article about the coming cardinal climax and T-square of Pluto, Uranus and Saturn. The article also includes an excellent illustration of a T-square on a chart. The entire article should read from start to finish.

"Standing like a huge monolith rising out of the earth in the middle of nowhere, and casting a very long shadow over all the other signatures within the forthcoming “Cardinal Climax,” stands Pluto in Capricorn. This is the initial signature that starts the complex and fascinating cosmic pattern of the “Cardinal Climax,” and it is the last to leave. The principles of these two astrological symbols – Pluto and Capricorn – are intertwined very closely with all the other signatures and patterns in effect between 2008 and 2015, and even into 2020 when Saturn and Pluto return to their 32-37 year conjunction." (Article title is Pluto in Capricorn, by Ray Merriman).

His weekly preview is free, the more detailed forecasts are by subscription, but I received an alert on Sunday with a projection for this week, Feb 1, 2009 through Feb. 7 (my birthday): If the DJIA does not close at or above 8300 for two days during this week, there may be a near panic sell off.

I am not an astrologer, although I do consult with one regularly. I have been working on a personal project that is proving to be self-sufficient and profitable, and I seem to be flourishing while other people are struggling, which I don't understand, so I am using a small portion of my profits as they come in to donate to the local food bank. We seen to be at the beginning of something that is having a drastic effect on a great many people, and appears to be similar to the events of the Great Depression, however, since this is the beginning and we have more options available to us than there were then, I think the wisest course is to try to be as aware and as prepared for anything as you possibly can, including food shortages, and to be as careful with money as possible. Think twice and then think again before you buy something, and look for discounts wherever possible. Above all, try to count the good things in your life, as well as the "bad" things. The good things are rewards and the "bad" things can make you a stronger person.

[astrop86]

Just a general update from the news feeds around the world regarding the crisis.

There have been riots reported in the cities of Moscow, Riga (Latvia), Paris, and Athens, as well as in regions of Luthuania, Bulgaria, and the UK.

California has recently begun printing "IOU" checks to pay its state workers and services in the highway patrol and social services, as well as canceling state pension payments to its state employees as an attempt to buy time until a budget of some form passes.

Finally, AZ, MO, MI, MT, NH, OK, WA are working on state resolutions to remind the US Federal Gov't that they reserve certain rights under the 10th amendment, including secession if necessary.

China is quickly pumping out stimulus plans to their nation to convert their society into a consumer based society, all while the US, UK, Germany, France, Australia and a host of other nations are printing money to inject into their financial sectors. I believe Russia has given up on stimulus / bailout packages and is beginning to find other means.

This is just the geopolitical parts of what is going on. I'm not sure how to draw up a chart for this crisis, as no one really knows when it actually started. Some could argue when Bear Sterns and Lehman Brothers failed, others could argue as far back as the early 1900's when the Federal Reserve Bank was established.

[Awakened_Pisces]

0_0, "IOU" checks in the U.S. How pathetic, how could we have let ourselves get this far below.

[Ariel Moonshadow]

To Astrop86: try using the date July 2, 1776, to calculate the chart for the USA, which was the date the Declaration of Independence was actually signed. It was in the afternoon, and I believe it may have been 2PM EST, but I'm not sure about that.

[HH]

Such gloom and doom - no medications if we get off oil! This is not about not using another drop of oil but simply not having our entire economy mindlessly dependent upon it!
Hey - what happened to ASTROLOGY??????? This is not a political blog, no wonder its getting so hyperbolic. A comment here and there is appropriate but folks come here to astro talk. What about the U.S. having a Saturn return coming up at 14 Libra?

[estrella]

Such gloom and doom - no medications if we get off oil! This is not about not using another drop of oil but simply not having our entire economy mindlessly dependent upon it!
Hey - what happened to ASTROLOGY??????? This is not a political blog, no wonder its getting so hyperbolic. A comment here and there is appropriate but folks come here to astro talk. What about the U.S. having a Saturn return coming up at 14 Libra?

I see what you are saying about getting away from the astrology and into proselytizing particular political points of view-and I agree that it is best to try to stay objective and focus on the astrology. That being said, I think that the "hyperbole" you are referring to stems from peoples stressful reaction to the fundamentally transformative time we are going through right now. This is a critical time in the life of the American Empire.

Pluto in Capricorn is totally transforming our economic and social infrastructures. The materialism, greed, and corporate corruption that we as a nation idealized back in the 1980's when Neptune was in Cap is being brought down to earth. Pluto is exposing the corruption so blatantly in our faces that we can no longer turn away. To see our ideals about our government, standard of living, and economy being so drastically shot down is upsetting and downright scary for people who are suffering financially. Hopefully when Pluto leaves Capricorn we will have learned a collective lesson about greed and corruption, and be left with a more austere, realistic, and equitable economic structure. Pluto in Cap is telling us that the way we have been doing business has been unsustainable.

Also, the Saturn/Uranus opposition is highlighting the struggle between conservative, status-quo and radical, progressive ideals that is going on in a big way right now. On one hand are people who are scared and insecure in the tumult who want to cling to their old ideas, and on the other hand are people who are pushing for progressive ideas whose time has come. This is an intense opposition that can easily get violent. The last time this opposition was active was in the mid 1960's.

We also have some more transformative astro phenomenon that will be going on with the cardinal cross and series of eclipses in the Cancer/Cap axis from 2010-2012. There are some major changes in store for the US.

Yes, the US Saturn return of 2010 will be one more indicator of the trying time we are going through. Hopefully, some wisdom and constructive maturation will come from it.
But, I think that the really big transformative spur will be the US Pluto return in 2022 at 27 degrees Capricorn. In the Sibly chart, Pluto is in the 2nd house of material values and money-so I have a really strong feeling that the Pluto return will go along with some drastic changes in our currency, markets, and economic system in general.