I hate Saturn in the 12th

[delilah4]

Because it's pretty much the only placement that has no defineable interpretation that isn't insanely vague. Yes I know it has to do with the subconscious but that doesn't mean it can't have some tangible, real-world interpretations like the rest of the planets.

Mars in the 12- secret enemies tend to be men. Repressed or hidden aggression.

Venus in the 12- secret enemies tend to be women. Secret/hidden love affairs.

Jupiter in the 12- defeats all secret enemies and tends to turn enemies into friends.

Saturn in the 12th- I don't get this one at all. What kind of enemies do they deal with?

[Shining Ray]

You don't have to think of the house as wholly about enemies and it does have tangible effects. Some possible effects of Saturn in 12th

Recognition hard to gain, can work in seclusion, a challenged Saturn can be lonliness and depression in 12th, also confinement in hospital/prison. As time and restrictment are two key words of Saturn. There may be difficult feelings to sort through here, I read a story of a woman with Saturn in 12th (house of pre-birth) who read her mother's diary of when she was expecting her, and in her diary the mother wrote how she didn't want the child because the baby would interfere with her creative work.

Although some of the meanings seem non-material it can manifest physically as in a man who goes to prison and spends time in solitude, thinking deeply on how he got himself there, what he is doing with his life etc. Which does lead back to the unconscious, Saturn in 12th may try to avoid all subconscious things, there may be fears attached to the 12th house area.

[lillyjgc]

Delilah4,
I think you would also need to look at the aspects to that 12th house Saturn, and the signs also.What houses does Saturn rule in your chart?--because the houses will reveal *where* in your life that 12th house Saturn will play out. Especially significant times will be the Saturn returns (at around 29 and again at 58-59)

But once again, the other houses involved will be key players...
Cheers, Lillyjgc

[Culpeper]

The 12th house is Saturn's favorite place, the joy of Saturn. If it has some essential dignity, the native will succeed and do very well in the world, will be prepared for any difficulties and may rise to a high position. If Saturn has no dignity these effects are reduced, and if in its detriment or fall, he may just be stubborn, given to foolish consistancies, and be generally ineffective.

This can be seen in the charts and lives of the USA politicians G.W. Bush and B.H. Obama. Obama has Saturn in the 12th and in rulership of Capricorn. This represents the first type, and he just goes on to succeed at what he does on his own efforts. Bush on the other hand with Saturn in the 12th and in detriment of cancer, has family connections, but he has been very ineffective at what every he has done. Also he comes across as a very stubborn person.

[tikana]

hi

I have leo saturn in 12th

no complaints from me on this issue.. yes its aspects are not possitive
square to uranus
square to merc offsign

not seeing anything tremendiosly negative

cheers
Tik

[delilah4]

Oh. Well My Saturn is in Virgo. And it's actually right at the cusp seperating the 11th/12th house so I guess it's read in the 12th. I don't believe that's in detriment or fall...Is it peregrine maybe?

according to astro.com the aspects are
* sextile uranus
* sextile midheaven
* square neptune
* conjunct north node

I guess since it doesn't aspect any of my inner planets it's pretty weak.

[tikana]

D

I only have 1 inner only sun conj moon

mars trine merc - off sign

that's all!

Tik

[Ekim86]

I got Saturn in the 12th but also conjucnt my sun. I'm pretty keen with spottin suttle, kinda indirect attacks towards me. I'm good at seeing deception or people lieing to me. Pretty easy for me. If we relate the 12th house to enemies. Also I don't seem to have enemies, or thats what they want me to think!!;) I like to "sqush beef" with people rather then it hang over my head. Clear the air. I heard uranus in the 12th house can relate to misfortune with large animals, such as bears and lions. From an older astrology book. Just the add a quick one to the list above.

[waybread]

Delilah4, I also have Saturn in Virgo in the 12th, opposite my sun. OK, so I am a bit hyper about getting details correct in some domains of my life, in ways that others [like my husband] see as niggling perfectionism, but that I see as, "Omigosh, I will never be good enough [Saturn] to get this right [Virgo]!" The expression of one's 12th house planets may be blatantly obvious to everyone else, but the "native" is apt to be unaware of them and how they affect her life or other people.

I also got frustrated by the inapt accounts of this placement that I read. "Prisons, hospitals, asylums, and work houses"? Puh-leeze! I may have had a few problems in my life, but I never ended up in one of these, nor worked in one except for one summer job in a hospital when I was 17. I think the connection, though, is that the 12th includes misfortunes and unfortunate people of various kinds. And there are many ways for an individual to feel shut-in or shut-out in life.

If you are a night-birth, Saturn in the 12th can represent a father who was physically absent or else emotionally remote and aloof if he was home.

The 12th was described in traditional astrology as the house of self-undoing. So what gets undone here? First of all, look for the sign on the cusp of your 12th house, then locate its planetary ruler. What house is it in? That will tell you a lot. Then, as lillyjgc indicated, look at the aspects. That Saturn square Neptune, for example could sap your self-confidence about your competence in life, unless other chart placements counter it.

People with strong 12th houses are often spiritually enlightened, as once their ego (sun) gets "undone" they can focus on service to humanity or their spiritual lives. With Saturn here, however, religious faith may be elusive.

Conjunct your north node? Then you really have to address this one. One of the best explanations I read of Saturn in the 12th is that it indicates a "serve or suffer" lifetime. Some kind of service [Virgo] to people in need [12th house] of what you can offer them would seem like a good use of your talents.

I have to ask, Delilah, whether you frequently feel that you should be doing some good for other people. [Or possibly for animals, the environment, or somesuch.] Once you begin this sort of service [Virgo], however it may seem to you, you may find that this placement works a lot better. Look also to the sign on the cusp of your 6th house and the position of its ruler, or to any 6th house planets you may have.

I've had my share of 12 house "secret enemies" but Saturn is above all about patience, persistence, and self-discipline. The enemies can't break you down too badly as you develop your inner backbone.

[delilah4]

Well, I'm glad you wrote this waybread because I once again decided to look up interpretations for the placement and was about to tear my hair out. They're all so elusive AND so very different.

Yes there is the hospitals and prisons, but there's also the "native has hidden issues that have to be worked out"... Um. Everyone does.

More interpretations I've found:
1-native fears discipline and order. And another one that states
2-the native fears most the death of the imagination.
3- native suffers lonliness (but that would make it too simular to saturn in the 11th house.)
4-authority figures tend to be secret enemies of the native.
5- astrology x-files that interprets it as having no secret enemies because secret enemies easily come to light to those with saturn in the 12th. If Saturn here truly does mean authority figures than it makes sense that there would be no need for them to keep secret- since they are the authority.
6- The influence of authority figures remains hidden to the native
7- You fear anything hidden

So as you can see there are so many different takes on this placement it's infuriating. I don't see this problem with any other placement. The astrological community seems just as unclear with Saturn in the 12th as I do. Though I hear what you are saying about the native being unable to see it...since it is in the 12th house after all. Drives me crazy when things get so unclear!

Here I'll post my chart. Saturn is right at the cusp of the 12th house. North node is still in the 11th house. Virgo rules mercury. My mercury has problems since it's retrograde and it is in the 10th.
http://www.astro.com/tmpd/chnufilexjYwLQ-u1093367510/astro_2gw_38_milo.61016.736.gif

[waybread]

Delilah, Are you a classic worry-wart? That would be one reading of Saturn in Virgo in the "house of self-undoing", square Neptune in your third house of your mental state. Virgo shows where we may feel a sense of perfectionism; and Saturn, where we never feel good enough. With Neptune, you are never quite sure what is real and what is imaginary--until it turns around and bites you afterwards. Retrograde Mercury is fairly common, but as the house ruler for your Saturn in Virgo, it may accentuate Mercury retrograde's tendency to review and re-think as it reconsiders events. [the Monday-morning quarterback.]

You've got a bit of a triplet pattern here. Service-oriented Virgo in the 12th, squaring Neptune, with Neptune-ruled Pisces on the cusp of your 6th house of work and service. Neptune conjunct moon in Sagittarius almost makes me think of you somehow helping (Virgo, the 6th) misfortunate (Neptune, the 12th house) people (moon) overseas (Sag) or perhaps volunteering to help foreign (Sag) people in your local area (3rd house).

Then having so many planets in your eastern hemisphere gives you an action orientation. So it is not just a question of adjusting your mentality: you have to be out doing something. You might think of Saturn as asking you to contribute some service to people less fortunate than yourself, even if it is merely donating money to Oxfam or a refugee relief organization, or donating some of your time to a local charitable organization.

Having Saturn in Virgo in the 12th myself, I know that I feel edgy if I feel that I am not somehow contributing to other people.

[Claire19]

Because it's pretty much the only placement that has no defineable interpretation that isn't insanely vague. Yes I know it has to do with the subconscious but that doesn't mean it can't have some tangible, real-world interpretations like the rest of the planets.

Mars in the 12- secret enemies tend to be men. Repressed or hidden aggression.

Venus in the 12- secret enemies tend to be women. Secret/hidden love affairs.

Jupiter in the 12- defeats all secret enemies and tends to turn enemies into friends.

Saturn in the 12th- I don't get this one at all. What kind of enemies do they deal with?

Stressing the enemy thing is not all that the 12th house represents. You would need stressful aspects for that. It is more self undoing and self destruction really.

Saturn in the 12th can mean working for charities, churchs, doing reflexology and healing work that involved the skeletal structure. We must always look at the whole chart as Saturn in the 12th by itself tells us nothing.

It can mean that your father for instance is a priest or minister but where Saturn is, is where we reap our karma. It is the hard work and reality planet. Where we learn out hardest lessons and become stronger.

[Claire19]

Hidden love affairs are more the 8th house.

Saturn in 12th - enemies are authority figures, father, grandfather perhaps

[Hey]

I hear people with their Saturn in the twelfth house have a lot of people dump their problems on them. They have to bear it all because Saturn like a straight face.

[tikana]

gals and guys

start with cappie house then go off to see why it is in 12th

my saturn rules 6th house. I like to work in seclusion

Hey, i dont even get people to get that close with dumping their stuff on me.. i usually say "do i look like a therapist?" i know it is rude but i got enough problems without listneing to their stuff. Although i do have a couple of male grown up lunatics who talk my ear off on the phone. i would leave the house throw garbage clean my car, reply to bunch of PMs or IMs.. they would be still talking without stopping. My thing is .. get to the point.. gimme a problem i will give you solutions. i dont want to hear about emotions and feelings. that is a big reason why i dont even want even get certified nor be an astrologer. I will look at horaries and transits if it is interesting and to see what will happen but i dotn want peopel to come to me to see emotional support ... there are pisces and cancers for that or virgos but not me

Tik

[delilah4]

I like you Tik. You sound like a slightly less sensitive version of myself. lol.

I don't mind listening to other people's emotional problems as long as they are doing it for the sake of solving a problem...but a lot of people like to complain just for the sake of complaining. They don't want solutions they just want a constant shoulder to cry on every time they keep making the same mistake over and over. Well my shoulder has better things to do than to be cried on over the same **** repeatedly. If you don't want my advise or help in solving the problem, keep it to yourself...like I do. :)

[tikana]

I like you 2, D. I am sensitive i am not emotional!

I cant take it ... you give them opinion, they still dont listen. Why do you bother even asking if your mind has been already set!

Tik

[sethi]

HELLO

I HAVE FOUND THE FOLLOWING IN REAL LIFE SITUATION.

1. In the first case, a girl was divorced having saturn in the 12 th house. she was married again but unsuccessfully. stayed at her parents house for many years which she considered a prison

2. In another case, a man contacted a skin disease and sufferred horribly through it for 1 year. was also hospitalized.

always there is some sort of fear in the mind

bye for now
regards
sethi
________
Toyota Alessandro Volta (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Alessandro_Volta)

[Claire19]

The 12th house is Saturn's favorite place, the joy of Saturn. If it has some essential dignity, the native will succeed and do very well in the world, will be prepared for any difficulties and may rise to a high position. If Saturn has no dignity these effects are reduced, and if in its detriment or fall, he may just be stubborn, given to foolish consistancies, and be generally ineffective.

This can be seen in the charts and lives of the USA politicians G.W. Bush and B.H. Obama. Obama has Saturn in the 12th and in rulership of Capricorn. This represents the first type, and he just goes on to succeed at what he does on his own efforts. Bush on the other hand with Saturn in the 12th and in detriment of cancer, has family connections, but he has been very ineffective at what every he has done. Also he comes across as a very stubborn person.

Success in the world relies on 10th house placements. The 12th house is the house of self undoing, addictions and neuroses. George W is an alcoholic and reformed coke head who found God supposedly. Another 12th house manifestation and Cancer just exacebates the alcohol problem. Saturn in 12th suggests behind the scenes influences and with the first election of George W, it was a lie and a travesty with the voting system and he was selected and not elected as so many in power are.

[Claire19]

HELLO

I HAVE FOUND THE FOLLOWING IN REAL LIFE SITUATION.

1. In the first case, a girl was divorced having saturn in the 12 th house. she was married again but unsuccessfully. stayed at her parents house for many years which she considered a prison

2. In another case, a man contacted a skin disease and sufferred horribly through it for 1 year. was also hospitalized.

always there is some sort of fear in the mind

bye for now
regards
sethi

The skin disease and hospitalisation is a manifestion of Saturn in the 12th but the divorce and staying with the parents is not unless connected to the 7th house and 4th. The prison feeling belongs to the 12th yes. You will find connections to the 4th house of family, the Moon and the 7th and Venus I am sure.

[sethi]

hello

yes marriage and related can be connected to 5 and 7th house. and venus too.
sometimes saturn in 12 causes strange types of complexes which can be the reason for divorce later on.

my experiences as above

regards

sethi
________
Xs750 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Yamaha_XS750)

[luneblanche]

Hi!
I have aswell Saturn in Virgo on my 12th house. I don't know why but I always bump into people that just don't like me. They make my life difficult and unpleasant. Sometimes I wish not dealing with people at all so that I cannot get enemies. I don't know if it is my Mars-Saturn square that brings out the bad of people over me or if it is my Neptune-Saturn square that makes me believe in everyone, even the wrong ones which, soon or later, manage to take advantage of me or hurt me. (I'm so eager to believe!!)
But if it is said that Saturn in the 12th is positive in a way that shines over the enemies that I can say seems true. Somehow I always get to know who likes me or not and even people around me can see it , sometimes first than me, who are my enemies!
I just don't understand much about the undoing, and self destruction view. My Saturn in Virgo is conjuncting my North Node and Ascendant. So does it mean that I have a tendency to destroy everything that I do, even myself? It seems a hard karma.
Thanks.

[waybread]

Hi!
I have aswell Saturn in Virgo on my 12th house. I don't know why but I always bump into people that just don't like me. They make my life difficult and unpleasant. Sometimes I wish not dealing with people at all so that I cannot get enemies. I don't know if it is my Mars-Saturn square that brings out the bad of people over me or if it is my Neptune-Saturn square that makes me believe in everyone, even the wrong ones which, soon or later, manage to take advantage of me or hurt me. (I'm so eager to believe!!)
But if it is said that Saturn in the 12th is positive in a way that shines over the enemies that I can say seems true. Somehow I always get to know who likes me or not and even people around me can see it , sometimes first than me, who are my enemies!
I just don't understand much about the undoing, and self destruction view. My Saturn in Virgo is conjuncting my North Node and Ascendant. So does it mean that I have a tendency to destroy everything that I do, even myself? It seems a hard karma.
Thanks.

luneblanche, I have had this happen to me as well, with my 12th house Virgo, and Virgo AS. I think it has to do with several chart factors.

The AC/DC axis is the "I-thou" relationship: not just the cusp of the marriage house, but how you come across to other people. Virgo can be a bit of a fuss-budget. Saturn in Virgo can be a definite fuss-budget, because Virgo is a perfectionist but Saturn shows where we feel inadequate. So this can come across as the "S/he doesn't like me" signature when the AC/DC axis is involved. (In my case, Saturn does not conjunct my AC, either. But the 12th house planets often indicate energies that are not very clear to us, even when everyone else around us can see them coming by a country mile.

OK, so opposite Virgo lies Pisces. Pisces has a lot to do with letting go, and being all right with everything as it is, not as Virgo might like to fix it. Your DC ruler is Neptune, and it squares your Saturn. Neptune, the trickster, can make it hard for you to develop a realistic and self-confident self-image. [He probably does give you a flare for writing, though, with that trine to Jupiter/Mercury.]

[Claire19]

hello

yes marriage and related can be connected to 5 and 7th house. and venus too.
sometimes saturn in 12 causes strange types of complexes which can be the reason for divorce later on.

my experiences as above

regards

sethi

Yes marriage can also be related strongly to the 4th house in my experience and sometimes the partner shows more there in the family context.

I take your point about the 12th house issues such as sub conscious neuroses and issues which can interfere with relationships. It is the house of self sabotage and karma from the past. If it is connected to the 7th and to Venus it would affect your marriage situation for sure.

Cheers

:)

[sethi]

Stressing the enemy thing is not all that the 12th house represents. You would need stressful aspects for that. It is more self undoing and self destruction really.

Saturn in the 12th can mean working for charities, churchs, doing reflexology and healing work that involved the skeletal structure. We must always look at the whole chart as Saturn in the 12th by itself tells us nothing.

It can mean that your father for instance is a priest or minister but where Saturn is, is where we reap our karma. It is the hard work and reality planet. Where we learn out hardest lessons and become stronger.


HELLO

saturn in 12 is sometimes a good sign.as per some ideas, mars, and saturn both are worst planets, and as 12 th is also a bad house so:

enemy + enemy = friend

so not actually friend but negatives cancel out each other. it is a good things to have saturn in 12th but even here it still does have some sort of an effect which can be judged by seeing the whole horoscope. However it won't do you much harm

regards

sethi
________
HOTELS IN MEXICO (http://mexicohoteles.org)

[Claire19]

Saturn can be rather at home in the 12th as it deals with karmic effects and Saturn is seen as the planet of the past and karma to a certain degree.

[actio]

Because it's pretty much the only placement that has no defineable interpretation that isn't insanely vague. Yes I know it has to do with the subconscious but that doesn't mean it can't have some tangible, real-world interpretations like the rest of the planets.

Mars in the 12- secret enemies tend to be men. Repressed or hidden aggression.

Venus in the 12- secret enemies tend to be women. Secret/hidden love affairs.

Jupiter in the 12- defeats all secret enemies and tends to turn enemies into friends.

Saturn in the 12th- I don't get this one at all. What kind of enemies do they deal with?
Saturn is associated with authority, parental figures, law, so they probably have to deal with secret enemies in form of authority figures - parents, older family members, older siblings, bosses and supervisors, regulators and lawmakers, police and government, etc. I don't know for sure, never met someone with Saturn in 12th, just interpreting from the meaning of the planet.

There is more info on Saturn in 12th house in this link (http://12th.tribe.net/thread/ef587f55-6eb3-4f15-b77d-56944f8dbb1d):

"In hellenistic astrology, Saturn is in joy here because it likes to create agnoia [unwit, ignorance]. It is a natural position for Saturn to express it's inherent blackness/neglectfulness."

"It's probably related to having saturn in the 12th that I've always had a firm belief that there is a natural law that trumps any and all of the rules and structures and BS's that we (humans) attempt to create and enforce. Most people these days try to get along with their lives according to man's laws and religions, whichcan indeed set a lot of events in motion and be functional or self fulfilling in the short run (like any illusion) but a pisces sun /12th house saturn like myself knows thatthere is an ultimate truth behind all of our illusions regardless of our ability or inability to perceive it. 12th house saturn surrenders its beliefs to faith in the natural order of things."

"Saturns known as the lord of karma and being in the most karmatic of all houses.. eehh.. times like these are when Id like to try a past-life regression. Of all my chart, I hate this position. My Saturn is well placed, completely unafflicted (at least by any of the 10 major planets), but this house position... is too painful. I hate looking at people, looking at life knowing its all gonna end some day, no matter how much I try to enjoy things, theyll end up being some sort of little souvenirs stored in my mind, knowing that all the people I know and myself are bound to die some day."

"That's how I look at life sometimes too, like "little souvenirs stored in my mind". I've told my best friend when we're both feeling particularly nihilistic that that's all life is, that no matter what you do, how good a time you may have at one time or another, it's just going to end up being an image in your mind is all that's left, as if it may as well have never even happened to beging with. I've never really thought it might have anything to do with having Saturn in the 12th House before now, but I suppose it may have an influence."

.

[waybread]

Since Saturn supposedly represents one's father in a night birth, the secret enemy might be Dad. One typical interpretation of Saturn in the 12th is that the father is typically absent from the child's life, either truly or simply emotionally remote and aloof.

Ancient astrologers said that Saturn had its "joy" in this house. I think the idea was that traditional astrology's 12th house was considered misfortunate. All kinds of rotten things were associated with it. I guess Saturn in the 12th could give one more fortitude to weather difficult times.

Some modern astrologers think the 12th house, alternatively, shows areas of your life that are unclear to you, perhaps operating at a subconscious level; even though they may be clear to everyone else. One's Saturn might operate here in a really unspportive way (too authoritarian or bossy, perhaps; or too weak and spineless.) You would have to look at Saturn's sign and aspects to get a feel for it. The idea is that the native is unaware of how her Saturn comes across in her life.

Case in point, no?

The 12th also rules hospitals, prisons, and institutions where people are isolated and shut-in, in some way. Mysticism and meditation are at home here, as these are rather solitary pursuits.

So we could imagine someone with a well-aspected Saturn in its own sign of Capricorn in the 12th, actually doing well as a hospital administrator or member of a religious retreat.