narcasissm

[pudinnpop]

I was having this talk with my sister and a freind about people who are truly narcasists.And i know a couple of ppl just like this!!! Its a personality disorder one which doesnt have a cure really.Anyways i looked at the charts of these two ppl and saw both had some jupiter squares,especially to the asc,also venus and at times pluto.First house.

Im sure other aspects would streghten this too but for now what im trying to study is planets that may indicate such a disorder,and these is what ive came up with.

So any discussion on this would be great as im trying to learn more about phycological astrology.I just find this fasinating.Thought id share on the forum:)

[lillyjgc]

pudinnpop,
I agree its an interesting topic, but in this instance there would need to be two provisos:
charts with accurate birth times and only charts of people officially diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder/.
It is actually quite rare and often confused with similar personality disorders, of which there are very many.
I think it can be counter productive to assume we can diagnose people's personality disorders accurately-and potentially dangerous. Also *potentially* unethical and of course charts, in this instance, should not identify the individuals in any way, or we run up against privacy issues.
I have a chart of a person diagnosed with NPD by a clinical psychiatrist, (the only people in my country qualified to make such a diagnosis.)

BTW, I have jupiter squares, but I have no personality disorders.I think *look at oppositions more than squares*...as narcissism can't really be overcome, and squares suggest obstacles that can be overcome.
Cheers Lillyjgc

[Shining Ray]

This topic is touched upon in the book inner planets by Howard & Liz.

I will just give out the astrological pointers from the book.

Usually difficult issues around the Moon, deep disorder in the early bonding. Baby is not encouraged to develop an independent existance. Mother may be over attentive and then withdraw. Mother cannot allow child to be seperate because of her own dependent needs. It is stressed in the book that such dilemmas with bonding may have legitamite reasons, one cannot always point the moral finger at mother (which I am glad to read, I get sick of mother always getting the blame :) ).
A disturbance of feeling safe is reflected by Moon in hard aspect to the heavy planets - paticularly Saturn, Chiron, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Many people have such aspects, (Liz Greene mentions earlier in the book that most us have narcisstic pockets in our personality).
Narcissism is a natural state of childhood, it is a 'disorder' when one gets stuck there in adulthood. Especially if one's perception of life becomes prinarily infantile. Difficult Moon aspects can suggest one has got stuck.
Powerful planets such as Uranus and Pluto in 10th may reflect a similar dilemma if the Moon is also in trouble.
There is a conflict around forming an identity, refelcted by a strong Neptune. And resistance to the limits of reality, reflected by an over powerful but badly aspected Saturn.
Liz Greene says there is no such thing as a chart which says "Narcisstic Personality Disorder" any more than a chart which says "World Dicatator" or "Musical Genius". There are hints which when added together point to a possible total sum.
Fire signs are paticularly prone to Narcissism. It's a charecteristic defence of the fire signs, against feelings of helplessness and inferiority. A fire sign feeling threatened will react with a display of grandiosity. Fire uses Inflation as a defence against feeling human and ordinary.I forgot how good those book in the astrology psychology series are. Highly recommended books.

Hope this helps :) .

[Raindrops]

Narcisstic Personality Disorder Symptoms:

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. They believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism.
Narcissistic personality disorder is one of several types of personality disorders. Personality disorders are conditions in which people have traits that cause them to feel and behave in socially distressing ways, limiting their ability to function in relationships and in other areas of their life, such as work or school. In particular, narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by dramatic, emotional behavior, in the same category as histrionic, antisocial and borderline personality disorders. Narcissistic personality disorder treatment is centered around psychotherapy"




==========================


His Chart:

Venus on the ASC by 1 degree in Cancer
Mercury in the middle of the 1st house
His moon (the ruler of his ASC) is in Sag 6th house opposing Jupiter (by 1') and Uranus (by 4').
Neptune in the 4th house -- disguising how he ran the house and his homelife

[DofS]

well from what I know, Leo is the most conceited **** in the zodiac which makes him the biggest narcasist.

[Kingsley]

I am afraid it is not as simple as Sun signs. Any way, most of the top end of mental health signicators show merc saturn neptune configurations and difficult Moon aspects etc.

There are personality adaptations rather than disorders. In other words one may have a narcissistic personality type, which just goes to explain something about how the person expresses themself. That is pretty normal kind of thinking feeling and behaviours.

I did some research on Narcissism and the asteroid Vesta. You might wish to read this
Death of a Narcissist: Insights to Vesta (http://kenoath.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/death-of-a-narcissist-insights-to-vesta/)

I tend to write from a different view point and relate my case studies to astrology. I use other charts to describe what my findings are. These are not difinitive studies however I like to promote different ways of looking at and using the chart.

Nothing wrong with healthy narcissism in my view.

kingsley

[Natasha]

Getting away from medical labels and looking at the overall "IDEA" of narcasissm when thinking of the Greek myth of Narcassis I would like to suggest the following ideas
- narcasissm seems to be behaving like we do when we are a child ie less than say 3 or 4
I feel narcasissm images would be found around the moon. Now not every moon with difficult aspects would play out like that but it may
A family member who is no longer with us and was quite old when she died, had many of the characteristics of narcasissm. She was an intelligent women at a mental level but emotionally like a demanding & self centered child
Now it is normal for a child of 3to exhibit demanding & see themselves as the centre of the world and see everyones motives caused by them, as a child of 3 is just starting out in life
But this lady was like that all her life.
Her Moon was in Leo square to her Saturn in Scorpio
She lost her mother at 7 and her father at 14.
Her husband who she married when she was 21, treated her like "the princess" all her life and let her behave in this way.
I feel she have never recovered from the loss of her mother and father and did have any lifestyle counselling (as it wouldnt ever really happen in those days I guess anyway)

[BobZemco]

I did some research on Narcissism and the asteroid Vesta. You might wish to read this
Death of a Narcissist: Insights to Vesta (http://kenoath.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/death-of-a-narcissist-insights-to-vesta/)

I don't see where the article is valid.

The symptoms for narcissism are:
Overreacts to criticism, becoming angry or humiliated
Uses others to reach goals
Exaggerates own importance
Entertains unrealistic fantasies about achievements, power, beauty, intelligence or romance
Has unreasonable expectation of favorable treatment
Needs constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Is easily jealous It was a bit of a shock to see Karen Carpenter's name on the list, since she was quite clearly not narcistic. In Saddam's case, perhaps some are confusing megalomania with narcissim. They are similar, but not the same. As with all psychiatric/psychological diagnoses, all symptoms must be present, not just one or two or a few.

I think the best indication might Saturn, Neptune and Sun when forming a t-square.

[Kingsley]

Gidday Bob, thanks for your opinions. That seems to be a mixed list of symptoms you list, which could apply to a few categories. I think my blog was investigating Vesta and Narcissism and I am not saying that Karen Carpenter was a narcissist even though she did have some eating disorders I believe.

I hope you understand what most people seem to get mixed up between personality traits versus disorders. Obviously Warren Beatty doesn't have a disorder.

I hear what you are putting forward to back your statement (opinion) about my blog on Narcissism however I strongly disagree with you Bob.

best
Kingsley


Kingsley



In my understanding the narcissist has little empathy for others

[Sansamark]

This is a really interesting subject and one i would like to voice my opinion on. Having studies a bit of psychology, I beleive narcissism to have be instigated by an amalgamation of pschological medical condition and of effected by astrolog (http://www.hitflip.de/games/)ical issues. However, I truly beleive that if the sufferer is aware that he/ (http://www.hitmeister.de/)she is narcasistic then something can be done, which lies not in psychological make-up, nor astrological systems, but the innate effort that all humans must make in order to be accepted. For the world of the narcasist is not only difficult for everyone else but also difficult for themselves.

[Natasha]

I am feeling that people can be narcasistic and also be able to have a normal life. We dont know intimate details about Karen Carpenter or Warren Beattys personal lives so my feeling is that they could very well have some narcasissm tendencies.
People can & do live ordinary lives keeping up successful careers and run businesses and own property and have relationships and still have personality traits like narcasissm. In fact very successful people seem to not escape from these personality challanges and more than the person who cannot hold down a successful job etc. And people do change the patterns which cause the exhibition of narcasissm - mostly thru counselling. Plus people dont always change 100% from narcasissm traits - its not like turning a car on or off. Some with counselling improve by 50% some 25% depending how they can and want to change that inner dialogue for instance.
Psychology drugs rarely resolve personality "disorders" like narcasissm as far as I can see - they just push down things then as soon as the drug is stopped it all comes back worse than ever.
It does seem that counselling combined with inner work seems to help
Astrologically the best time is when Pluto aspects luminaries and to a lesser extend the other inners. It opens the capacity for permanent change when combined with counselling.

[BobZemco]

I am feeling that people can be narcasistic and also be able to have a normal life. We dont know intimate details about Karen Carpenter or Warren Beattys personal lives so my feeling is that they could very well have some narcasissm tendencies.

Sure we do. Karen Carpenter died of a heart attack because she was anorexic-bulemic. She didn't think she was beautiful, hardly narcissistic. She was not one to demand the spotlight, as was obvious from the fact that the name of the band was "The Carpenters," not "Karen Carpenter," and she preferred to sit behind the drums while she sang, rather than grabbing attention by standing in front with the spotlight. In fact, she had no narcissistic traits whatsoever.

[BobZemco]

However, I truly beleive that if the sufferer is aware that he/she is narcasistic then something can be done

That's true for any disorder. The problem has always been getting kleptomaniacs, or narcissists or substances abusers and others to see that they are.

[Natasha]

Sure we do. Karen Carpenter died of a heart attack because she was anorexic-bulemic. She didn't think she was beautiful, hardly narcissistic. She was not one to demand the spotlight, as was obvious from the fact that the name of the band was "The Carpenters," not "Karen Carpenter," and she preferred to sit behind the drums while she sang, rather than grabbing attention by standing in front with the spotlight. In fact, she had no narcissistic traits whatsoever.
Interesting Bob - I don’t know anything about Karen Carpenter - wonder how she was felt to be narcissist by someone. Perhaps being a bulimic was enough for the person to think she had some narcissism issues. I personally don’t know enough about bulimia to comment but am sure there would be many reasons that people become bulimic & many more than one underlying reason whether narcissism is one I am not sure.

I felt that narcissism could be more that outward self aggrandizement tho.

I had this feeling that it INCLUDED PATTERNS which outwardly look like the neediness and self focus a small child normally exhibits and somehow a narcissistic person does not get emotionally past that preschool neediness.

Whether it is openly exhibited or not I am not sure - my feeling was that it sometimes may not be as the person may have issues with feeling the world thinks they are entitled to attention but crave it personally
.

[Sansamark]

That's true for any disorder. (http://news.hitmeister.de/bucher/18532-hauptstadtkrimi-berliner-lust.html) The problem has always been getting kleptomaniacs, or narcissists or substances ab (http://filme.hitmeister.de/beginner-s-guide-to-astrology-273028/)users and others to see that they are. (http://www.hitflip.at/books/title/Diabolus_37503/)
Yes of course. I guess i know quite a few people who simple say "yes i do need constant attention but that is just the way i am" or "i am just really quite self-centered, can´t help it, its me". It is not a good enough excuse to go around being selfish and mean and excuse it merely by owning up to it as being a personality trait. If you are clever enough to KNOW you are, then you are clever enough to DO something about it.

[BobZemco]

Gidday Bob, thanks for your opinions. That seems to be a mixed list of symptoms you list, which could apply to a few categories.

It's straight from the APA (American Psychology Association) diagnosis handbook.

In order to be diagnosed as a narcissist, one must possess all traits listed, not just a couple.

I hope you understand what most people seem to get mixed up between personality traits versus disorders. Obviously Warren Beatty doesn't have a disorder.

No, he doesn't, and the fact that at one time in his career he may have over-exaggerated his importantance as an actor and director doesn't suggest that he has narcissistic traits or tendencies.

I watch Heaven Can Wait about 4-5 times a year. It's a very humurous film that he co-directed with Buck Henry (who also wrote the script), which is something a narcissist would never even consider doing.

[Kingsley]

I would check the DSM1V diagnostics Bob, The Narcissist is within a cluster of other like-disorders such as anti social and also gets mixed up with women diagnosed with the Borderline personality. There are many very successful narcissistic people in the world. It would seem that blogging in the last several years has also given rise to an outlet for "narcissim on the net".

kingsley

[blueheron]

well from what I know, Leo is the most conceited **** in the zodiac which makes him the biggest narcasist.

Guess you don't know much.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll204/yanaar/astrosigns/c06b432bed5af02713e21ffd6c017259-1.jpg

[Polo]

[QUOTE=Raindrops]Narcisstic Personality Disorder Symptoms:

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. They believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism.





==========================



That's everyone.

[blueheron]

I was having this talk with my sister and a freind about people who are truly narcasists.And i know a couple of ppl just like this!!! Its a personality disorder one which doesnt have a cure really.Anyways i looked at the charts of these two ppl and saw both had some jupiter squares,especially to the asc,also venus and at times pluto.First house.

Im sure other aspects would streghten this too but for now what im trying to study is planets that may indicate such a disorder,and these is what ive came up with.

So any discussion on this would be great as im trying to learn more about phycological astrology.I just find this fasinating.Thought id share on the forum:)


It's interesting that you found this little tidbit. George Bush Jr has Jupiter conjunct Moon, square Sun. It's been my experience with the Jupiter square that the native is arrogant. That would be a factor in narciciss... however you spell it.

I have a client with Jupiter square her Sun, and she tells me that she has to always self-reflect and self-correct because it's natural for her mind to jump to a judgmental and arrogant conclusion.

Jupiter squares can also cause a person to be inappropriately enthusiastic. This (taken with other factors of course,) could partly explain the "grandiosity" of narcissism.

However, one must always take all factors into account, and not jump to conclusions too quickly. In serious cases, I'd wager severe afflictions from Saturn/Mars/Pluto.

[Kingsley]

Sorry to pour water on Leo's parade however I know plenty of narcisistic types (not disorder level) and they range from Pisces, Aries, Aries, Sagittarius, Aquarius and Capricorn.

Whats wrong with a bit of attention and some good old "me me me". Unless that is one is dominating the conversation, maintaining the full attention peoples in their environment - all of the time. I must admit, even to do this requires a great deal of skill.

kingsley

[blueheron]

[quote=Raindrops]Narcisstic Personality Disorder Symptoms:

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. They believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

That's everyone.

Well... yes and no. There are gradations of narcissism up to a full blown Psychotic disorder. But no, not everyone has NPD.

[Nexus7]

'Sure we do. Karen Carpenter died of a heart attack because she was anorexic-bulemic. She didn't think she was beautiful, hardly narcissistic.'

Well, maybe, there are shy narcissists, who are still nevertheless wrapped up in themselves. Having said that, I could not say whether Karen Carpenter was narcissistic or not, or what factors were used to define her in this way.

I know 'narcissism' is a word bandied about a lot to describe the behaviour or other people we don't like very much, some of which may be truly objectionable. Like 'entitlement.' I understand there is a new book out called 'how to sort out your inner brat,' or words to that effect.

[hermetic]

very interesting thread, for contribution sake here's an example of a very narcissistic person I know, being all about themselves with very little care for others
Leo Sun in 10th
Asc Libra
Jupiter in 1st squaring Venus in Leo on MC

[archergirl]

One of my brothers-in-law is a narcissist. He was born at a New Moon (Cancer Moon/Sun: 10th house), and has a stellium in Leo (11th house): Venus, Mars, Mercury, Uranus., with Pluto conjunct but from the next sign. Sun/Moon oppose Saturn. ALL of his stellium squares Jupiter.

He is in some ways very lovely; generous and inclined (per the Leo stellium) to 'grand gestures'. However, he is also the most self-absorbed man I know. According to him, his entire family has been 'rescued' from ruin because of his (and his alone) actions...and the opportunity to discourse on his heroism is never too far from a conversation with him.:rolleyes:

At the same time he lives a lifestyle FAR beyond his means (a mortgage and a 20k lease car paid for by credit cards and a part-time job!) that he managed to wheedle out of a lender. He has VERY expensive taste and is a terrible snob; ONLY the highest quality designer stuff will go in his house: Italian sofas, famous artwork, etc. He is a brilliant con-artist, which is why he's managed to get away with doing as little as possible with the maximum possible outcome for him, for as long as he has. He hasn't held a full-time job in at least twenty years, and doesn't feel inclined to do so at any time soon, even though his finances are now looking very threatening. No doubt he will find a way to wheedle someone out of some money to 'help' him, because he's very good at playing 'helpless' to other people, all the while twisting it around so that he comes out looking very shiny and 'on top'. My goodness.

When I think of him I always think of the Mighty Mouse song: "HEEERE I come to save the DAAAAY!". Because that's his attitude. I love him, but I'd like to wring his neck.

AG:)

[pudinnpop]

LOL archegirl!!!

[archergirl]

He is a VERY attractive man, and he is nearing 50; extremely intelligent, and the funny thing is that for most of his life people have thought he was homosexual...something about him sets off the 'gaydar'. But he is hetero, and is about as dysfunctional as they come. Per a Cancer Sun/Moon in the 10th, his relationship with his mother borders on unhealthy...and as much as he tries, he cannot get away from it...and still he maintains this 'Mighty Mouse' perspective.

He has a LOT of women friends, but because he's so dysfunctional he cannot pick a healthy woman for a relationship, for the life of him. A serious girlfriend of his committed suicide. He dated my best friend for a few years, and she had to get away from him, because the force of his personality overrode any sense of individuality in her. She felt suffocated by his self-involvement. Since then he has chased one unhealthy woman after another...all involved with someone else or just coming away from a relationship, and with each new infatuation he has convinced himself that it is 'real' and is a great love...with the woman running away from him as quickly as possible.

Poor thing; he reminds me a bit of 'Pepe le Pew', the skunk who chases after the poor female cat, convinced that she, too, is a skunk.

He sounds terrible, but he's actually a great guy. I can only spend a little while with him, however, before I feel the need to go on a long walk.

AG:D

[Kingsley]

Narcissists can be very successful people. One usually finds that world leaders etc are narcissistic. They have the ability to invite the recognition for their skills - attributes and to generate popularity in their direction. You wont see a schitzoid type doing that sort of thing..

kingsley

[Claire19]

I was having this talk with my sister and a freind about people who are truly narcasists.And i know a couple of ppl just like this!!! Its a personality disorder one which doesnt have a cure really.Anyways i looked at the charts of these two ppl and saw both had some jupiter squares,especially to the asc,also venus and at times pluto.First house.

Im sure other aspects would streghten this too but for now what im trying to study is planets that may indicate such a disorder,and these is what ive came up with.

So any discussion on this would be great as im trying to learn more about phycological astrology.I just find this fasinating.Thought id share on the forum:)


Good idea to use your spellcheck. :)

Astrology is fascinating and the more so the deeper you go into it.

Jupiter square Venus and involving the ascendant sound logical for aspects for narcissism. Also the Sun would be involved. As it is a self centred and self obsessed disorder. So perhaps Venus with Pluto yes.

[Claire19]

He is a VERY attractive man, and he is nearing 50; extremely intelligent, and the funny thing is that for most of his life people have thought he was homosexual...something about him sets off the 'gaydar'. But he is hetero, and is about as dysfunctional as they come. Per a Cancer Sun/Moon in the 10th, his relationship with his mother borders on unhealthy...and as much as he tries, he cannot get away from it...and still he maintains this 'Mighty Mouse' perspective.

He has a LOT of women friends, but because he's so dysfunctional he cannot pick a healthy woman for a relationship, for the life of him. A serious girlfriend of his committed suicide. He dated my best friend for a few years, and she had to get away from him, because the force of his personality overrode any sense of individuality in her. She felt suffocated by his self-involvement. Since then he has chased one unhealthy woman after another...all involved with someone else or just coming away from a relationship, and with each new infatuation he has convinced himself that it is 'real' and is a great love...with the woman running away from him as quickly as possible.

Poor thing; he reminds me a bit of 'Pepe le Pew', the skunk who chases after the poor female cat, convinced that she, too, is a skunk.

He sounds terrible, but he's actually a great guy. I can only spend a little while with him, however, before I feel the need to go on a long walk.

AG:D

Therein lies the problem and with men it always begins with the mother figure.

Can you put his chart up? He may be latently homosexual and only chases those with whom he cannot have a committed relationship. He obviously has a strong pull with you and no doubt you have pluto synastry. He sounds very Scorpionic.

[archergirl]

I'll attach his chart here. Keep in mind that the time of birth is debatable, as he either has a late Virgo Ascendant or an early Libra ascendant. I've given him a Libra ascendant because he expresses far more Libran energies (including being so good-looking, definitely a Libra ASC characteristic; he's by far the best-looking of the three brothers, Mr. Archergirl included!) than Virgo energies...but I could be wrong about this. Also note that he is having some VERY difficult transits right now, including a tr. Pluto conj. natal Saturn one. He is starting to pay the piper for his past choices.

[Claire19]

well from what I know, Leo is the most conceited **** in the zodiac which makes him the biggest narcasist.

The spelling is narcissism and really I think Mars and Aries would be more appropriate but Leo can be involved or the sun. What is the true definition of narcissism??? It is a psychological condition and perhaps Pluto is involved too.
Some people are just self involved and vain but not really narcissists. Is it that they simply dont count the other person in and look at everything from their own point of view only and have concern only with self?????

[freedomlover]

The spelling is narcissism and really I think Mars and Aries would be more appropriate but Leo can be involved or the sun. What is the true definition of narcissism??? It is a psychological condition and perhaps Pluto is involved too.
Some people are just self involved and vain but not really narcissists. Is it that they simply dont count the other person in and look at everything from their own point of view only and have concern only with self?????

I agree, Claire. The people I've found to be very narcissistic had either a heavy dose of Leo or Aries in their charts. I've found a couple of people with heavy Scorpio placements that could be this way, too. Of course, I'm in no way saying that all Leos or Aries or Scorpios are narcissistic - just that a heavy dose of these planetary energies can seem to make some people susceptible to narcissism.

FL

[R4VEN]

I know someone who definitely has a personality disorder, and I can tick all the Narcissistic PD boxes for him - as stated by BobZemco earlier in this thread. There are more which can belong within this umbrella of behaviour, such as having no real sense of humour - since the person has not developed emotionally beyond the age of 7-8; having no empathy (other than a faked sense of it, which appears real until you critically listen to the words they use) - empathy normally develops between the ages of 4-7.

I believe that NPD is a product of (perhaps) some astrological setups, which then renders a person susceptible to the extremes of their primary parental relationships.
For instance, the person I mention has such fantasies about his importance in his family, and he sets everyone up in order that he is the one who comes out a hero - and this rarely works out as he plans, but he ignores the truth of outcomes in order to maintain his fantasy. He has moon conj Saturn, both in Scorpio, and both squaring Pluto. He is truly unbearable in my opinion. He lies and lies and lies, and very few seem game to take him on and confront him. I have confronted him on a couple of occasions, and he has responed by turning from a smooth-talking manipulator to a nasty and aggressive bully in the blink of an eye.
He appears to have absolutely no ability to self-examine, or to critically examine his behaviour and how it affects others as well as himself - this also appears very common in NPD.

[Spungie]

How about tough aspects to mercury in defensive cancer?
Like square aries mars or something.
Could be the icing on the cake.

[Vicious]

Well, grand fire trines are often narcissistic, sun t-squares are often narcissistic, but usually it's a mix of placements.

[Claire19]

Good idea to use your spellcheck.

Pardon my saturn conjunct mercury.:)

[pudinnpop]

ROTFL@ Archgirl!! HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!

Sorry i nearly spit my tea out reading that!!!LOL!!

[woolgatherer]

I believe that NPD is a product of (perhaps) some astrological setups, which then renders a person susceptible to the extremes of their primary parental relationships.
For instance, the person I mention has such fantasies about his importance in his family, and he sets everyone up in order that he is the one who comes out a hero - and this rarely works out as he plans, but he ignores the truth of outcomes in order to maintain his fantasy. He has moon conj Saturn, both in Scorpio, and both squaring Pluto. He is truly unbearable in my opinion. He lies and lies and lies, and very few seem game to take him on and confront him. I have confronted him on a couple of occasions, and he has responed by turning from a smooth-talking manipulator to a nasty and aggressive bully in the blink of an eye.
Why do Moon/Saturn aspects incline someone towards narcissism? I have a Moon-Saturn opposition and I think it actually relates to my low self esteem and shyness. My Saturn is in Scorpio too, but maybe having my Moon in Taurus helps...

[estrella]

archergirl- I hope you had your brother-in-law's permission to post and discuss his chart.

That being said, I also know a man in his early 50s who is very attractive with a large stellium in Leo in the 7th who is a lifelong bachelor and narcissist....but also a really great guy.

[R4VEN]

That being said, I also know a man in his early 50s who is very attractive with a large stellium in Leo in the 7th who is a lifelong bachelor and narcissist....but also a really great guy. estrella, there is a world of difference between a Narcissist - i.e. one with Narcissistic Personality Disorder - and someone who is narcissistic. One with NPD will not be a great guy, as these people are truly awful, and emotionally abusive.

And I'm not sure whether this thread is about genuine NPD, or people who love themselves a bit too much.........
A person with the real deal NPD actually wallows in insecurity and self-hatred, and the NPD is a cover for this.
Why do Moon/Saturn aspects incline someone towards narcissism? They don't. It may be that a person with this aspect in their natal chart then also has a difficult and fractured r/ship with a parent, which then leads to the narcissism. Remember, also, that I'm speaking of the psychological disorder, which is a different thing altogether from one who looks in a mirror every time they walk past it!

[dreamtimez]

Well said ! :)

There is a world of difference between a Narcissist - i.e. one with Narcissistic Personality Disorder - and someone who is narcissistic [...] or people who love themselves a bit too much.........
Remember, also, that I'm speaking of the psychological disorder, which is a different thing altogether from one who looks in a mirror every time they walk past it!
I keep on doing that ... looking into the mirror, on the sly ! ;) In a way, I think, I love myself the most ... but definitely not at the expense of others. Is it wrong ? As regards astrology ... I have 5 planets in the fire signs, Jupiter squares the ascendant and Pluto is involved too. Now this helps me to understand myself !

[estrella]

estrella, there is a world of difference between a Narcissist - i.e. one with Narcissistic Personality Disorder - and someone who is narcissistic. One with NPD will not be a great guy, as these people are truly awful, and emotionally abusive.

I'm well aware of that difference. I was raised by an NPD mother, so I'm well aware of how nasty a severe NPD narcissist can be. But also realize that there are matters of degree. There can be a very fine line between the true NPD and the person that just "loves themselves too much".

The guy I know with the stellium in Leo in the 7th would have qualified as NPD when he was younger (very self-serving, manipulative, etc), but has become aware of how wrong his behavior was and has been actively trying to change and become a better person.

One thing to remember about NPDs is that they know right from wrong. They know exactly what they are doing. Case in point, one common complaint about NPDs is that they can be so well-behaved and charming at times, which makes it hard for people who don't know them so well to believe that there is anything wrong. NPDs usually have control over their behavior, if there are no Axis I issues going on. ....They can change their behaviors with discipline and desire, they are usually just such jerks though that they don't want to change.

Astrologically-I have been noticing that people with stelliums tend to be more self-absorbed, especially if their sun is involved in the stellium. I've also noticed Obsessive Compulsive Disorder associated with large stelliums. Maybe the issues that go on are a result of having so much energy concentrated in one area of the chart.

[barbh]

I know a man who is about as toxic a narcissist as I have ever met, and i should know, as i was raised by father who is classic NPD.

AG said


He has a LOT of women friends, but because he's so dysfunctional he cannot pick a healthy woman for a relationship, for the life of him. A serious girlfriend of his committed suicide. He dated my best friend for a few years, and she had to get away from him, because the force of his personality overrode any sense of individuality in her. She felt suffocated by his self-involvement. Since then he has chased one unhealthy woman after another...all involved with someone else or just coming away from a relationship, and with each new infatuation he has convinced himself that it is 'real' and is a great love...with the woman running away from him as quickly as possible.



Exactly right in this case as well. This man is just like that. Even I, as friend, need to take breaks from him because its like I get sucked into his charm clutches. He truly is brilliant and charming, but he has NO empathy for those around him, least of all for his live-in girlfriend. They say narcissisits will charm the socks off of you until they feel they can trust you, and then they'll turn on you, because then they know you're less likely to leave them. Abandonment is one of their biggest fears. Once he felt he had me hooked, he started acting a bit nastier. So, I retreated. He's constantly looking for attention, and if you even suggest a criticism, you're in for a verbal thrashing that you will never forget. Most of the women around him never run away though....he pretty much has everyone hooked in on a continual basis.

He's brilliant, has managed to achieve professional success and excelellence, but is constantly looking for his soul mate, whom he has never found.

As much as this man is attractive and charming, I find that I need to distance myself at the best of times. Its so easy to get sucked in....

here's his chart
Jupiter square Saturn
Sun conjunct Venus and Mars
virgo stellium
Moon square Neptune (soul mate stuff)

And yes, of course, everyone is narcissistic to a certain degree, since everyone has an ego. Its when it get to be a disorder that it gets scary. Once I started reading up on it, got books on it, I had to confront and acknowledge my own narcissism. Even the authors of one book said it as well. It's normal. It's the ones who have it at toxic levels that are draining to us.

barbh

[dog8818]

I have (well, *had*) a friend who had been diagnosed with NPD but didn't believe the diagnosis. But I did research on it when she was my friend and there was no doubt she had fit all the criteria, including the inability to see herself. She also "took hostages" in relationships, in order to keep the narcissistic supply going, and if you did not kowtow to her, tell her she was "all that" and *need rescuing* (that was an important one, she had the "Mighty Mouse" complex, too, because that always kept her one-up on you, and assured capitulation to her demands) then she quickly discarded you and moved on. The first time she came to my house she looked at my clutter and signed and said "ohhhh, you NEEED me". Well, she was only there at my house because I was friends with her husband, and I clearly didn't fit the sycophant criteria because I instantly told her that "that wasn't going to be the basis of our relationship". She was stuck between her husband and I were friends for many years and she knew that she couldn't just throw me aside. Thus ensued many years of power struggle between her and I. She once told me that she intended to "be the center of my Universe" and would regale me with her "grand evil plan" to bring her husband to his knees, indebt him to her forever, and have him "ride her coattails" of success. I couldn't believe she told me these things, because she KNEW I was his friend, but it eventually became obvious that she was very smart, because if I *did* tell him what she'd been saying, she could claim I was simply jealous and wanted to break them up. So I kept my mouth shut and watched as she systematically brought about every prediction she had made with him. NPD's usually pick supplicant people as partners, and her husband had Neptune in Scorp on Asc. squaring a Full Moon (Sun in Leo on Midheaven, Moon in Aq. on Nadir). The Leo Sun did nothing to save him, long term, although he has an incredible talent with music and when I met him he played in cover bands and was greatly loved by many people. But she decided that was "low brow" (and she had been a stripper when they met!) and forced him to quit. He now stays home and "is her *****" (yes, those were her words) and with the Neptune/Chiron transits opposing his Leo stellium, I fear he is sinking into alcoholism and depression, but I stopped speaking with her (and therefore, with him, because although I don't like the fact that he's married to her, it is HIS CHOICE and I must respect it). Anyway, here is her chart..... and I won't even outline the aspects because once you see the ease and flow of the ability to channel the narcissistic qualities, the aspects are clear.

One more thing: the defining moment was when I caught her cheating at board games. She needed to win THAT BADLY. And then she lied about cheating.

[barbh]

Hi dog8818

Sounds like you had your hands full! You gave me an aha moment though, in the part where you said she always picked supplicant partners, and would throw you aside if you didn't kowtow to her. Well, the guy I mentioned below has actually disowned his own sister and brother! He gave me some weak story about how she never told him she was sorry about something she had done, (he said that she had told someone something private about him) but who knows, its probably a lie. Nevertheless, he said he shut the book on her completely, and his brother, who is a parapalegic, and said that they can always come to him to apologize if they really wanted to. They never have. Maybe its because they know him to be toxic? Who knows better than one's own family. Sad really. He lies so often that its hard to know what's true and what's not, but I do know that he and his twin brother do not speak to any of their other siblings.

Oh, and the part about how she cheats at board games and then lies about it! LOL I've sort of come to realize that even if I caught him in a lie, and gave him the evidence, he would still deny it!

barbh

[smilingsteph]

I think that we can also look to someone who plays the martyr role as well. The "I do everything for everyone," role....
Then it leads to the person with an overinflated ego that creates this role that they give up so much for others that they need to be seen as gods.

I know martyr's are more related to a religious thing, but I think that the general term is applicable.

Personally I think everyone has a bit of Narcissisism within themselves to a degree.

But some of the examples given by you all really define the term well!

[barbh]

Good point. The martyr thing is there. Stellium in Virgo makes it even more pronounced. Martyring is really a passive aggressive way of expressing anger and control... its the victim thing, so it also makes it all about them. He told me this story about when he took flowers to his brother in the hospital who had just become a paraplegic, and his brother never acknowledged that he received them. He was quite upset about this, and made such a big deal about it...as if it was all about him. He never spoke to him after that. I'm sure there's more to it, but that was his story! Scary.

barbh

[Astro-Intuitive]

I've also studied the charts of people with this disorder. And in every case, I found negative aspects of the Sun, Mars and Pluto (to the ASC, Sun, Moon, or to one another) to be at the culprit.

A.T.

[barbh]

Astro Intuitive
Interesting! This dude has sun mars and pluto all conjunct...if you want to use out of sign aspect for mars and pluto. What do you think all these common aspects are saying in NPDs? Control issues for sure, anger as well, manipulation perhaps...

I've mostly noticed lack of water planets in these people. They're known for not having empathy for the feelings of others. They really don't care. My dad was/is one, and he has NO water, and this guy below has only one water planet...Saturn in Scorp.

barbh

[Astro-Intuitive]

Hi, barbh

Exactly. I think the Taurus ASC square those Leo planets adds to the fixed-mindedness. And the negative effects of the signs of Taurus, Leo and Virgo can characterize those traits. Taurus can be gruff, extremely biased, prejiduced and see only his point of view. Leo can have little or no tolerance for anyone's ideas other than his own. And Virgo can be extremely critical and believe that there's only one right way to do things - their way!

But I believe that in all cases, those planets are in someway involved. I have a family member whose horoscope I calculated. It was very revealing, to say the least.

I will say that she is not a bad person. She really is a sweet and very generous person. But she is also a very controlling person, seeks to be constantly in the spotlight and thinks the world revolves all around her. In some way, it's always the other person's fault; there's always something wrong with the other person (he or she is "dysfunctional", according to her). If the other person does not agree with her or expresses constructive criticism, that person is obviously "jealous" of her, etc. She also behaves in a way that would suggests obssessive compulsive disorder.

She's in the education profession and has been so for most of her life. Her life has pretty much been one-sided in that regard. She has six planets in the 9th house. Three are in Leo; the other three are in Virgo. The Sun, Moon and Pluto are square to her ASC. Mars and Pluto are contraparallel to one another. Mars is also square to Venus, Moon and Pluto. She has a Virgo MC, and Mercury is in Leo conjunct Uranus. She has been known to take things to the extreme and is constantly worried about keeping the appearance that she is absolutely perfect.

Her husband - 12 years older than she - is also extremely self-centered, but in a different way and to a lesser intense degree. He has a Libra Sun, Pisces Moon and Cap rising (and Scorpio MC). She has a Leo Sun, Sag rising and Virgo Moon.

To say that she is controlling an understatement (especially with her three sons, who are all now adults). She can be UNBEARABLE - very much like character Miranda from the devil wears prada.

BTW, She also has only one planet in a water sign, Neptune (in Scorpio). But then she also has a water sign on an angle - Pisces on the Imum Coeli (4th house cusp).

A.T.

[barbh]

Hi Astro intuitive

Just wondering....is she especially charismatic? I've read that that is one of the dominant characteristics of NPDs,.....they are very very charming! Which of course draws people in to them. Of the two I know best, both are very much that way. Pluto can make one quite charismatic I think.

barbh

[R4VEN]

Personally I think everyone has a bit of Narcissisism within themselves to a degree.


Steph, I agree with that statement. I have been having to examine my own tendency towards playing the martyr - it flips in without me even seeing it coming, and I so hate myself whenever I find myself doing it. A few days ago my son hauled me up on it saying: "This isn't about you!", and he was right.

And from barbh:
Good point. The martyr thing is there. Stellium in Virgo makes it even more pronounced. Martyring is really a passive aggressive way of expressing anger and control... its the victim thing, so it also makes it all about them. He told me this story about when he took flowers to his brother in the hospital who had just become a paraplegic, and his brother never acknowledged that he received them. He was quite upset about this, and made such a big deal about it...as if it was all about him. He never spoke to him after that. I'm sure there's more to it, but that was his story! Scary.

The `playing the martyr' is something I have seen in narcissists I know.

Another thing I have gathered from following this thread has been that collectively, my father and 3 older brothers were a kind of narcissistic gang. They held both my mother and me `hostage' for years with their weird kind of changing rules and reality. Individually, they each had some of the characteristics - and my father was the `enabler' - but as an entity, they were quite formidable. (And something which I had not even seen until now is that my father's Scorpio Sun was almost exactly conjunct my natal Chiron. He also had a close square between his natal Mars (in Pisces) and Pluto)

Honestly, I think we all do what works for us, and if it continues to work, then we continue to do it. The most narcissistic person I know - I can tick all the boxes with him - continues with his behaviour because he has not learned any other way of behaving, and because in his own personal `reality' he can intellectualise away every single threat to his own status quo. Whenever someone confronts him by exposing his lies or whatever (as I have) then he changes allegiances immediately, and invents stories about that person which he shares with his next victim(s). It has taken me a long time to be unaffected by this behaviour.

[R4VEN]

I have a family member whose horoscope I calculated. It was very revealing, to say the least.

I will say that she is not a bad person. She really is a sweet and very generous person. But she is also a very controlling person, seeks to be constantly in the spotlight and thinks the world revolves all around her. In some way, it's always the other person's fault; there's always something wrong with the other person (he or she is "dysfunctional", according to her). If the other person does not agree with her or expresses constructive criticism, that person is obviously "jealous" of her, etc. She also behaves in a way that would suggests obssessive compulsive disorder.


This person sounds like a text-book NPD.
Interesting that you say `she is not a bad person', and that she is also `a sweet and very generous person'. I'd say that the `sweet', `generous' and `nice' are not genuine for her, but a ploy she has to get others to trust her and side with her. She probably does this with ease, and does not even view her behaviour as deceptive.

A full-on narcissist is pretty much motivated by jealousy/envy of others, or even the perception that the things they do will make another jealous. It drives their life. Listen to her words, and you will get insight into her true feelings about herself, even her motivation, by listening to whatever it is she is accusing others of.

As to the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, a large number of narcissists have addiction issues. Many of them manage to successfully hide this for years, even decades. Trying to hide/cover OCD is a bit like trying to hide the elephant hiding in your kitchen!!

[Astro-Intuitive]

Hi Astro intuitive

Just wondering....is she especially charismatic? I've read that that is one of the dominant characteristics of NPDs,.....they are very very charming! Which of course draws people in to them. Of the two I know best, both are very much that way. Pluto can make one quite charismatic I think.

barbh

Yes, she is VERY charismatic (even mesmerizing) to others (Neptune in Scorpio in 11th house, Pluto conjunct Moon in the 9th house). People would never believe that she is NPD - never. Only her immediate family - her sons, husband, myself (her brother), brother, sisters, mother and her close aunt have seen it. Whatever it takes she will maintain the perfect reputation and the false image that she has the "perfect family."

[Astro-Intuitive]

This person sounds like a text-book NPD.
Interesting that you say `she is not a bad person', and that she is also `a sweet and very generous person'. I'd say that the `sweet', `generous' and `nice' are not genuine for her, but a ploy she has to get others to trust her and side with her. She probably does this with ease, and does not even view her behaviour as deceptive.

A full-on narcissist is pretty much motivated by jealousy/envy of others, or even the perception that the things they do will make another jealous. It drives their life. Listen to her words, and you will get insight into her true feelings about herself, even her motivation, by listening to whatever it is she is accusing others of.

As to the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, a large number of narcissists have addiction issues. Many of them manage to successfully hide this for years, even decades. Trying to hide/cover OCD is a bit like trying to hide the elephant hiding in your kitchen!!

Hi R4VEN,

You're absolutely right in what you said. The things she critisizes or says about others, she does herself. To say she "projects" is an understatement. There is definitely some feeling of insecurity there, in spite of how much she reminds others of how wonderful she is and of how much of a high self-esteem she has.

The thing that I don't quite get is: she always got what she wanted - the attention, the royal treatment, the favortism from family members, the straight As in school, the awards, admiration, etc. She was and still is that "IT" person. So it puzzles me why she is so bent on getting so much attention and being seen so favorably in the eyes of others.

Again, I feel bad for her, because I don't even think she realizes it herself. I also feel bad, because she really has demonstrated that, overall, she's a moral individual. She is the oldest child of five, keeps her promises, is always there when a family member needs her, will fight to the death for a moral injustice, gives considerably to others who are in need, etc. It's very confusing because on the other hand: she very good with repartee and often takes an haughty attitude in trying to make others look stupid (to make herself look and feel superior), easily twists words around or plays mental gymnastics with others (she's a master debater!) when they call into question something she has said or done and when she thinks they're stupid enough not to see through the deception or match or challenge her wits. She also tends to downplay others who she feels are not at the same level of status that she is or when they do attain it, her attitude is either: "Well, I was the first to do it" or "...[whatever name of the person] got it only because I did." Her husband - a Libra Sun and Capricorn rising - also does this. Everything is about "status" and "image" for them.

She has this complex where every single day, she has to spend the day cleaning - only she doesn't really do it (or at least any of the major or hard things - she may fold her clothes or organize her closet): she has her husband and sons do it. She directs. And once everything is organized, she'll invite someone over or have some event to go to or have "something come up" where she rushes and messes everything up again - only to clean it up again the next day...and the next day...and the next day....It's a vicious cycle. I'm mean, This is EVERYDAY. It's not normal, and yet she's the first person to always point out how "others" are not normal or are "dysfunctional" (her favorite word).

She and her husband even had a two-hour powerpoint presentation for their three sons - pointing out things that she disapproved of (which really wasn't anything abnormal, if you consider expressing your own mind as abnormal) in their behavior as "abnormal", "dysfunctional", "disdainful" and as a "disgrace" to the family. She and her husband are "control freaks" (to use a vain expression) and very manipulative. The two younger sons have been falling for it, although now that they're older and in college, they're beginning to see it. But the oldest son sees - and has always seen - right through them (and that's the one they have the most clashes with). He's determined to be out of that house within the next couple of months. This is a 22-year-old male who just graduated from college this year - and she is trying to control him by demaning he go to graduate school (she's a professor/educator) even though he wants to go out into the world of business. She tells him that she's embarrassed when people ask how he is or what he is doing ("Nothing" in her mind). Yet, she has him doing all types of arrands for her - slaves labor him - by helping write (i.e., type) and edit her book, typing her class syllabus, answering her students' E-mails and preparing all class materials, etc., etc. - everyday between 7am up until 10pm. Daily.

She doesn't realize that she is just driving her son away and when he leaves he is rarely going to stay in touch with her. I have to stop writing now, because I notice myself getting way off track. I get upset just thinking about it. I apologize for that.

[R4VEN]

To say she "projects" is an understatement. There is definitely some feeling of insecurity there, in spite of how much she reminds others of how wonderful she is and of how much of a high self-esteem she has.

The thing that I don't quite get is: she always got what she wanted - the attention, the royal treatment, the favortism from family members, the straight As in school, the awards, admiration, etc. She was and still is that "IT" person. So it puzzles me why she is so bent on getting so much attention and being seen so favorably in the eyes of others.
She actually feeds off others - needs them for her to be able to function. This is at the core of this dysfunctional behaviour.
My oldest son (who, strangely, has Asperger's and so does not function quite `normally' in the world) identified the major, major, full-on NPD whom I know after only meeting him once and spending 4-5 hours in his presence. My son is very well-read, and one of his many obsessions is dysfunctional human behaviour. He told me that narcissists behave as they do - in extremely controlling ways - in order to hide something about themselves of which they are deeply ashamed. This is why I mentioned about your relative saying harsh things to and about others being an insight into her perception of herself, and so her motivation. You see her one way, and yet she sees herself as so, so flawed. That leads to her over-achieving behaviour.

She and her husband even had a two-hour powerpoint presentation for their three sons - pointing out things that she disapproved of (which really wasn't anything abnormal, if you consider expressing your own mind as abnormal) in their behavior as "abnormal", "dysfunctional", "disdainful" and as a "disgrace" to the family. She and her husband are "control freaks" (to use a vain expression) and very manipulative.
That sounds at the high end of extreme to me. Interesting that she (and her husband) seem so ashamed of their sons. This would indicate to me that they got together - i.e. married - based upon a kind of mirroring of the shame they see in each other. So now they together project this on to their kids. Pity they can't turn the spotlight back upon themselves.

I also find it interesting that her husband - a Libran, I think you said - has joined her in her shaming-of-others behaviour. There will always be a reason - unspoken, unseen - as to why she does what she does. Her behaviour is a smoke-screen to cover what she fears others may `see' in her. I find it ironic that once a narcissist is recognised as such, then it is quite easy to connect the dots - in what they do and the accusations they make - and figure out their Big Secret!!!! Narcissists are almost always very skilled with words, but if you really pay attention to what they say, and how they say it, there is generally another message altogether running underneath their words. Unravelling their `message' is a bit like listening to Reverse Speech.

[Astro-Intuitive]

R4VEN,

Everything you said has come to pass. You've pegged exactly the characteristics and behaviors she manifests.

Oh, and speaking of being at the high end of extreme, I forgot to add: they made them sign contracts, too, - promising ways by which each one will "man up" to his responsibilities and stop being a "dysfunctional" person.

As for her husband, although he's a Libran, his Capricorn traits and Mars on ASC stand out much more. Also, her husband does anything for her, because she believes she has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (which she was diagnosed with after a major injustice experienced in her occupation some four years ago - but she now uses that card to have them do whatever she wants. The thing is, she is able to control herself and do all the right things in the presence of outsiders, because she will not be "embarrassed". So, the fact that she goes ballistic on her sons - especially the oldest one - at home when things don't go her way is...well....It makes me think that that's just a card used to take advantage of the situation - and them.)

Thanks for provided that information.

[barbh]

Hi R4VEN and Astro

You're both ringing bells for me. So glad I can put more of the pieces together now.

This dude is also not a bad person. He seems to care about people in distress, in a general kind of way. He always received awards, admiration, was always the 'it' guy, and still strives to be. I gave up even trying to make a point with him, as his debating skills are unbeatable. Very intelligent. He twists words around and manipulates them to make his point, and sometimes it would take me hours, or days, to figure out how he did what he did.

I've wondered about the addiction aspects here. He does not drink, nor smoke, and he doesn't even eat very much (he says) and has no obvious addictions. I'm starting to get a feeling that he is rather hyper though. He's always going out and doing something. Works a 12 hour day, then out for dinner with a client, and will do it day after day. He can't stand not being part of the action.

I've caught him in numerous lies. A lot of the lies seem to revolve around women and sex and relationships. I originally thought he may have been a sex addict.....still wonder about that. I'm pretty sure he has a few on the side, (he lives with his girlfriend) and is constantly looking for an opportunity. I almost don't believe a word he says anymore, even though I could never really prove anything. Even if I did, he would manipulate it around to make it look like it was my fault in some way.

The lying is quite extensive I believe. Maybe to the point of him believing his own lies. Perhaps this is his addiction.

He has everyone fooled....everyone loves him and are drawn to him. His business clients too. But they don't see him and talk and interact with him daily. I think the pain starts when you start to get sucked in and start to trust them, and then whammo! I feel bad for his girlfriend...she must know what he's like.

Thr weird part is, no one knows about her! I don't get it. Is he ashamed of her? He has lived with her for 5 years, and not one of his friends knows she exists. He just says that its no one's business. My friend asked him directly one day if he had a girlfriend, and he refused to answer the question! His business partner doesn't even know, so when he has colleagues over for dinner, she goes to her dad's house. What is up with that? Aren't NPDs supposed to be proud of someone who is on their arm? I always thought it was because he wanted people to believe he was single so he could get laid easier. But maybe not, maybe its something to do with shame...?



He told me that narcissists behave as they do - in extremely controlling ways - in order to hide something about themselves of which they are deeply ashamed


I believe this to be true, as I've picked up on his very low self esteem. He absolutely cannot stand anyone to think badly of him.

I agree with the part about how they feed off of others. If one doesn't give him the necessary admiration, he has no use for them. I suppose I fed his ego enough that he kept talking to me, but then again, I was raised by one and it comes as natural as breathing to me.

It just always so frosted my socks how everyone just loves him and is so drawn to him, women especially. He seems to make himself the center of the universe, and people just flock to him. I suppose its because they don't really know him.


barbh

[R4VEN]

I've caught him in numerous lies. A lot of the lies seem to revolve around women and sex and relationships. I originally thought he may have been a sex addict.....still wonder about that. I'm pretty sure he has a few on the side, (he lives with his girlfriend) and is constantly looking for an opportunity. I almost don't believe a word he says anymore, even though I could never really prove anything. Even if I did, he would manipulate it around to make it look like it was my fault in some way.

The lying is quite extensive I believe. Maybe to the point of him believing his own lies. Perhaps this is his addiction.
Not all NPD's are addicts, but most are. Some are hugely high achieving, while others crash & burn continually.

barbh, the way you describe this guy I would say that his fantasy (they all live their lives based upon a fantasy perception which they then present to the world) is one of being some kind of sexual `hero', which is perhaps why he doesn't mention his live-in girlfriend. His own fantasy demands that he is single, available, and so, so amazing with women, so much so that all women are gagging for him!!! A girlfriend does not fit this fantasy, so he never mentions her. Remember that what he presents to the world, and his whole range of behaviour is all about him, and what he wishes the world to believe about him.

It's interesting to note that the people who remain in his life will be those who are either emotionally imprisoned by him, or those who wish to believe the fantasy which he presents. Once a person exposes his fantasy - that is, states that they know he's lying his a*** off - they are bound to be dead meat to him.

The NPD guy I know is a major addict - his drug of choice is marijuana - but shows none of the usual signs of long-term addiction, other than the occasional psychotic outburst when he's really pushed. His `fantasy; is that he's a really good father - in fact, he'd like everyone to believe that he's the best father who ever lived. In order to be a good and protective father, he firstly has to convince his (adult) kids that they need him. To do this, he has systematically broken down each of these kids, and then stepped into their lives - often in their houses - and `helped' them. As each kid begins to see what is happening and questions his motives, he then moves on to the next one. Currently he has entrenched himself in the life of the youngest, who appears to be turning the tables on him by controlling him in much the same way that he believes he is controlling (`helping') her. This guy has no friends and no life, apart from his kids, who feel sorry for him. He is very articulate and good with words - but not that good!!
When I caught him in a series of blatant lies, I just kept saying, "I know you are lying." And when he tried to twist my own argument, I just repeated, "I know you are lying." After 10 minutes or so of that his veneer dropped suddenly, and he began snarling at me like a fox caught in a rabbit trap. That was a very illuminating moment for me!! My approach to this guy now is to treat him as though he were invisible. Narcissists hate being ignored!! The more people who notice them and acknowledge them, the more powerful they feel.

Their strategy is all about gaining a sense of personal power via using others - i.e. their interaction with others is always parasitic. That is how you can identify someone as a narcissist, and that is also the reason Libra planets are often found in the natal charts of narcissists. As my Libran son has told me: "We Librans know intuitively how to make ourselves important to others."

[barbh]

It's interesting to note that the people who remain in his life will be those who are either emotionally imprisoned by him, or those who wish to believe the fantasy which he presents. Once a person exposes his fantasy - that is, states that they know he's lying his a*** off - they are bound to be dead meat to him.



Yes, I think his girlfriend must be emotionally imprisoned. I know that she wants to marry him, and she still believes that he will marry her one day (my mom knows her), but he is just leading her on. This most likely makes her vulnerable to him...this undying hope that will never manifest.

I love how you just said 'I know you're lying!' This dude's thing with me is that he knows I think he's a liar. He knows it, and he hates it, and he has even made a special point of telling me how upstanding and honest he is, and how could I ever question that? Yep, he hates that I think so little of him. lol And the part about him hating to be ignored...it doesn't go along with their 'specialness.' Which is why I'm doing my best to ignore him. Its hard trying to make him invisible when he's always there, but I'm doing my best.

His own fantasy demands that he is single, available, and so, so amazing with women, so much so that all women are gagging for him!!! A girlfriend does not fit this fantasy, so he never mentions her. Remember that what he presents to the world, and his whole range of behaviour is all about him, and what he wishes the world to believe about him.


Now that makes so much sense! I really could not get my head around that one. It also makes him look really, really delusional doesn't it. Believing his own fantasy. It also reminds me not to believe a word he says....which i don't anyway. lol

thanks for the wonderful insights

do you speak to the man you mentioned anymore? Has he been rendered invisible? I would think that he would eventually come back and try over and over again to convince you that he is indeed honest and amazing. They don't seem to give up to easily. Well, this one guy doesn't.

Astrologically speaking, does the man you mentioned have a lack of water in his chart?

barbh

[R4VEN]

This dude's thing with me is that he knows I think he's a liar. He knows it, and he hates it, and he has even made a special point of telling me how upstanding and honest he is, and how could I ever question that? Yep, he hates that I think so little of him. lol And the part about him hating to be ignored...it doesn't go along with their 'specialness.' Which is why I'm doing my best to ignore him. Its hard trying to make him invisible when he's always there, but I'm doing my best.
Actually, barbh, the fact that he knows that you knows he is lying is such a powerful position for you, and a real weak spot for him, because he will continue to try to convince you of his `truthfulness', and this further reinforces your `power' - in his eyes, at least.

Now that makes so much sense! I really could not get my head around that one. It also makes him look really, really delusional doesn't it. Believing his own fantasy. It also reminds me not to believe a word he says....which i don't anyway. lol
Yes, and the fact that you know he is delusional further frightens him. You see, all his energy is spent in maintaining and further building his own delusion.
Do you speak to the man you mentioned anymore? Has he been rendered invisible? I would think that he would eventually come back and try over and over again to convince you that he is indeed honest and amazing.
Astrologically speaking, does the man you mentioned have a lack of water in his chart?
barbh
I have known many people in my life who have been narcissistic to a degree, and have always managed to get away from them eventually.
The man of whom I speak is the most seriously narcissistic person I have met, and as things stand at present I am unable to `get away from him', as he is a close member of my grandson's other family, and for most of this year he and I have had to conduct the handover of my grandson for access. This was decided by the courts without my say-so. I was pretty upset about this, but the minimal - but regular contact - has allowed me to work on putting up walls to him. Oh, he has tried to win me over and to engage me in conversation. He has this manipulative, sing-song quality to his voice whenever he is trying to win anyone over - it is quite hypnotic, but I tend to cut him off whenever he begins to talk like that, and he really hates that!!! - his eyes flash (Scorpio Moon), and his face looks like thunder. If I can, I usually blank him, or tell him the child's parents will communicate over such-and-such an issue - (he's trying to be the child's `perfect father' also!!!) This regular contact has been a bit like Chinese water torture, but it has also allowed me to get to know his weak spots and to turn this back on to him. My son is the child's father, and my son has said to me that this man considers me `unfinished business', and that he will try and try to win me over, because I called him a liar in front of other people, so humiliating him in his eyes, and so this guy must balance the books!! The last time I saw him was 2 days ago, and I felt nothing at all for him - no fear, no rage, nothing - and even felt a bit sorry for him, because essentially, without his fantasy about himself - and it is a fantasy - he has absolutely no life!!!. I am pretty sure that reading and contributing to this thread has helped me to really understand how to deal with this guy without being sucked into his games. After all, there are narcissists everywhere, especially in the workplace.

The man I know is a Libran - he uses words to manipulate - but he does have water - Moon in Scorpio, and Mars in Pisces - and I think it is actually his water planets which render him weak. Were he to have more Leo, or more Libra, then he would not be so freakin' transparent. There are plenty of other people who are still fooled by him, so he concentrates his energies on them. I can honestly say that a knowledge of his astrology has so helped me to slowly navigate through his BS, and to separate myself from his intentions. So, hurrah for astro! :rightful:

[barbh]

Hi R4VEN

A full-on narcissist is pretty much motivated by jealousy/envy of others, or even the perception that the things they do will make another jealous.


I've noticed this many times from this one man, to my own detriment. He would throw me under the bus just to make himself look good. If I opened up about something in my life, like one time I was sharing a story about how my ex-boyfriend was very cheap and how I never received a birthday present from him ever. This guy would chime in about how generous he himself was and how he got his girlfriend all these expensive presents for Xmas. (which I later found out was a lie!). So, of course, I just ended up feeling even worse about my non gift giving ex. I soon learned that I could never let myself be vulnerable around him, because somehow, I would always always end up feeling worse!

It drives their life. Listen to her words, and you will get insight into her true feelings about herself, even her motivation, by listening to whatever it is she is accusing others of.


I know he has low self esteem, but he doesn't tend to accuse others of anything usually. He usually operates in a more of a 'look how great I am' kind of way, as opposed to 'look how bad the other guy is' kind of way. If I talk about some other man in a complimentary kind of way, sometimes he will respond with a comment about how great he is at that thing too. I've seen it a few times.

Oh, actually, he does put down other people's ways or opinions if they don't match his. He doesn't seem to have a lot of room or patience for other people's opinions, if they are different from his. Actually, he gets bored really fast if one talks about something that is not directly or indirectly related to him. He has cut me off many times.

He does get into these black moods sometimes though, and I've always suspected (known!) that its when he's feeling especially bad or low about himself and has not been able to quell these horrible feelings with envy or admiration from others, and it comes screaming up and out. Its not pretty! And it gets dumped on other people.

There was one time, back in the day, when I accused him of being a player. He absolutely had a fit! I mean, a complete meltdown. You would've thought I killed his mother or something. Way too much energy, if you know what I mean. It was weird. He can make things so believable, that I almost believed him, except for the fact that I knew it was true. Do you think they believe their own lies? Why such an OTT response?

I've also noticed a victim stance. Is this usual? When he had that anger meltdown, he said that 'I made him mad' , as if somehow I'm responsible for his emotions. That was an eye opener for me.

I have to see this dude all the time, so i keep re-reading all this stuff posted here to really get my head on straight and remind myself that he's just an act, and not to fall for it. Its fairly easy now, because I've had to endure so much of his ****, that at some point you just say enough. I enjoy ignoring him now, knowing that it really really bugs him. :biggrin:

Also wanted to comment on Moon pluto aspects. I've read that narcissists are the way they are because of a messed up relationship with mom. Moon Pluto hard aspects could show this, as well as show how a man will look for a 'mother' in his relationships. This dude has a moon pluto inconjunct, as well as a moon in Cap. Definitely mommy issues. I know he looks for soft females, passive women, and very sensitive and nurturing women.

barbh

[R4VEN]

I have to see this dude all the time, so i keep re-reading all this stuff posted here to really get my head on straight and remind myself that he's just an act, and not to fall for it. Its fairly easy now, because I've had to endure so much of his ****, that at some point you just say enough. I enjoy ignoring him now, knowing that it really really bugs him. :biggrin:
Me too.....:devil:
I have used this thread a bit like a personal therapy page, which I believe those of us who have to confront narcissists regularly are in need of. :w00t: Without this thread I think I may have buckled under more than once.

Also wanted to comment on Moon pluto aspects. I've read that narcissists are the way they are because of a messed up relationship with mom. Moon Pluto hard aspects could show this, as well as show how a man will look for a 'mother' in his relationships. This dude has a moon pluto inconjunct, as well as a moon in Cap. Definitely mommy issues. I know he looks for soft females, passive women, and very sensitive and nurturing women.

barbh
Wow, barbh, I can really relate to that about Pluto-Moon aspects. And it certainly makes sense, too.

The man I talk about has Scorpio Moon square his Pluto, and he had no father - or not one that his mother ever told him about. He talks about his mother like she was a saint, but it's obvious to anyone with eyes that she was a real piece of work. She died over 20 years ago, and so he can make up any story about her he likes - and does!! Essentially, he has re-written his own history. :bandit:

I've recently been working through issues to do with (in particular) 2 of my older brothers, who were extremely abusive towards me when we were children, and the emotional scars still remain. One is dead, while I cannot see the other at all, as his `reality' confuses me. I'm not sure that he's a full-on narcissist, but he possesses many of the characteristics. Both of these brothers have Moon-Pluto conjunctions. The one who is still alive has Moon and Pluto slightly less than a degree apart, both in Leo. He was a total mental case when he was a kid, but has been very successful in life as an adult. He possesses his own `truth' about most things, and has never ever acknowledged the damage - physical/mental/verbal - he did to me, even though I tried confronting him. When I tried addressing our shared past, he just turned the conversation around and made everything about `poor' him. His wife is definitely a narcissist.

[R4VEN]

Why do Moon/Saturn aspects incline someone towards narcissism? I have a Moon-Saturn opposition and I think it actually relates to my low self esteem and shyness. My Saturn is in Scorpio too, but maybe having my Moon in Taurus helps...
This quote comes from a post from May 2009, but it's a relevant question to ask.

I seem to remember that I mentioned an NPD I know who has Moon-Saturn conj, both squaring Pluto. As I see it, it's the square to Pluto which does the real damage - astrologically speaking, since it's actually the parenting, or absence of meaningful parenting which is actually at the core of the behaviour. The Moon-Saturn conj can render a person low in esteem - and NPD's, despite what they would have you believe, are all very low in self-esteem, otherwise why would they have to create such elaborate illusions?

And the best article/description for lay people on narcissists which I have read has to be this one:

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

[barbh]

Excellent article. Thanks R4VEN.
It gave me a few more a ha moments as well. Especially the part about losing our perspective, and how we need to talk to someone about it, just to reinforce that we're not the ones with the problem!

Love the joke too.

"How many narcissists does it take to put in a lightbulb?'

"Just one, but the world has to revolve around them!" :biggrin:

It also gave me insight about why he hides his girlfriend. It said that they are ashamed of their lives and of the close people in it. Its all about shame. So, in effect, he is ashamed of her. I had wondered about that before, because why on earth would you not want to show off a gorgeous girlfriend?

As for the moon Saturn aspects...I think it does show that mom may have been rather cold or wasn't as forthcoming emotionally, or had really high expectations of the child....just as this guy has Moon in Cap. It just reinforces the narcissism if there are other aspects involved.
I think it has a lot to do with lack of water, although you said you didn't think so. I say it cause that's what I've seen so far. Its hard to have empathy without water. My ex boyfriend was super narcissistic, and had no water. My dad as well....zero water. Another boyfriend was as well, but he did have some water....yet he was not toxic NPD....a more mild version.
Its just my observation

barbh

[blacksun?]

Hi AG, Nice portrait you paint of this guy...
I have to agree to the general idea that hard aspects to Jupiter are almost always issues of overcompensation, overextension of self worth, exaggerated expectancy and so forth.
Vesta on the other hand is a much more focussed energy - if this one is connected to a very personal planet or house then there is a strong self-focus. But I get the idea that strong personal Vesta aspects are not usually unhealthy - self centered is not necessarily a bad quality. Jupiter however, if his energies are un- or misdirected, can cause a whole complex of disproportion.

[R4VEN]

It also gave me insight about why he hides his girlfriend. It said that they are ashamed of their lives and of the close people in it. Its all about shame. So, in effect, he is ashamed of her. I had wondered about that before, because why on earth would you not want to show off a gorgeous girlfriend?
barbh
Yes, I think that the best way of `dealing' with narcissistic personalities is to keep in mind the powerful role their sense of shame has in determining how it is they behave - and more importantly, why.

A lot of articles state that if you feel bad after interacting with someone whom you suspect of being narcissistic, then they may be. The `feeling bad' comes from their habitual behaviour of taking some of their own sense of shame and wrapping it up in such a way that you will catch it and hold it and even take it away with you when they throw it your way - usually in the form of an apparently innocent comment or observation, or even accusation. They get a charge out of doing this, but they still feel shamed. All they have managed to do is to pass some of what they feel on to another.

[Miss Kitten]

I have a family member with NPD. She is a Scorpio and I think a Leo ascendent, but am not sure of the ASC.

She has hard Pluto aspects, ie, Pluto squaring a Sun-Saturn conjunction, and hard Mars aspects, ie Mars square moon.

[blacksun?]

I have a family member with NPD. She is a Scorpio and I think a Leo ascendent, but am not sure of the ASC.

She has hard Pluto aspects, ie, Pluto squaring a Sun-Saturn conjunction, and hard Mars aspects, ie Mars square moon.
Hard Saturn and Moon aspects definitely serve to undermine the integrity of a personality, and often that comes out in an exaggerated Jupiter function. Is that present in her chart?

[Miss Kitten]

Hard Saturn and Moon aspects definitely serve to undermine the integrity of a personality, and often that comes out in an exaggerated Jupiter function. Is that present in her chart?

I am new to this and don't know what would show an exaggerated Jupiter. She has Jupiter in Virgo opposing Mars, sextiling the sun, and squaring the moon. Jupiter might be in the second house (I don't have an exact time for her chart, only an estimate). Does that help any?

[R4VEN]

I am new to this and don't know what would show an exaggerated Jupiter. She has Jupiter in Virgo opposing Mars, sextiling the sun, and squaring the moon. Jupiter might be in the second house (I don't have an exact time for her chart, only an estimate). Does that help any?
Jupiter opposing Mars would do it.........
The full-on narcissist I know has Moon conj Saturn (in Scorp) and Mars in Pisces (not a happy Mars IMO) opposite Jupiter. This combo means that their perceptions of how they act do not in any way match what is actually happening. And his actions are full-on, and lack a good sense of timing. He pushes and pushes and pushes, and when opposed by others (most people close to him are too scared to oppose him) he turns on whoever opposes him and `makes them wrong', by dumping his own shame on them.

I have a brother who has always had narcissistic tendencies. He has Mars and Jupiter inconjunct.

I see it as a `broken Mars', but this is mainly because he is a man.

[R4VEN]

Even though he's attractive and famous and rich and can be very charming and all that, he's never had a solid relationship, and when he does find a steady girlfriend, he seems to invariably pick someone who has severe emotional problems.
Have noticed the same with narcissists - and those with narcissitic tendencies - whom I know. The guy I blather on about has only ever had `romantic' relationships with women who are mentally ill, and his `friendships' are all about him attaching himself to younger people - who don't know how to tell him to eff off!

My brother's wife is borderline in my opinion. I find it hard to have any sort of `normal' interaction with her. She's always declaring war on someone for some minor thing or other. She seems to thrive on creating conflict.

The common denominator was they both had a very tight Saturn-Mars opposition right across the ASC/DSC line, and very similar charts generally. But to look at the difference in the way they handled it...it was down to a few days, and the only big difference was Cap Moon for the narcissistic one, and Taurus Moon for my lovely friend. Dignities count?
That still blows me away.
Not sure about dignities.
By `across the ASC/DSC line', do you mean forming conjunctions with the axis? That would make a lot of sense if this is so.

[R4VEN]

I think the 'I have a grey hair' bloke is the only true narcissist I've met - if he really is one. Seems likely. I was astounded - in a not good way - over and over at how he managed to not 'hear' anything that wasn't about him and wasn't a compliment.
Yes, I have noticed that too with the full-on, 90-100% narcissists. It must always be about them. The story of your TB diagnosis is classic, and very pertinent. They are usually emotionally stuck somewhere between ages 4-14, and have not ever developed empathy, or a sense that others exist for reasons which do not include or involve them.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, very narcissistic people create a bubble-of-reality which for them cannot be questioned, or destroyed in any way - otherwise they are detroyed, and so don't exist, and they only exist in their own personal bubble - a bit like they are continually writing their own script. Thus, they only ever respond to that which `fits' into their bubble; eg, I am the best, the best-looking, the most desired lover, or whatever. Your illness was not in any way `in his bubble', so it could not possibly be real for him, so he ignored it!!!

[blacksun?]

She has Jupiter in Virgo opposing Mars, sextiling the sun, and squaring the moon.
That can definitely result in an exaggerated Jupiter functtion, as Jupiter is at odds with the self image (moon) and generally frustrated (mars) and hence looking to buid up its own realm in the mind where it can value itself as it pleases. Jupiters ambitions are powered by the Sun by that sextile, which gives the impression that he really needs this distorted self perception. Solipsism would also be possible there.

[barbh]

Is Tiger a classic NPD?

barbh

[R4VEN]

Is Tiger a classic NPD?

barbh
Would not have thought so, given he seems very quiet, and not terribly fond of the limelight. I see him more as an opportunist-with-latent-narcissistic-tendencies. And he was not smart enough to con his wife, either. If he is narcissistic, then he's not terribly good at it.

Neptune in 3rd, in opposition to Mars is `interesting' though:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrological-aspects/mars-opposition-neptune.php