Self Sabotage

[Looking to Jupiter]

Hi all.

I have been thinking about self sabotage. You know, making decisions that are not the best choice for a persons own well being. I do it alot, and i think its my moon and sun in the 12th. But I doubt thats the only configuration.
How would you guys see such a thing in a chart? I am starting to think perhaps its quite a common thing, so thats why i am keen to make some astro sense of it......
(Do you think the second house would be somewhere to look?)

cheers

Did you know that today is the 06/07/08 .......

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Personally, I would think the Twelfth house would be more than enough to look at to see this kind of thing. Perhaps the house lords in the Twelfth or the house Lords that the Lord of the Twelfth aspects difficultly would define the manner that an individual sabotages themselves.

First house lord -- Health
Second house lord -- Finances

Etc, etc, in a predictable manner.

You know what they say, though. We are our own worst enemy.

[Looking to Jupiter]

thanks Kai...

I was thinking that the 2nd links with a persons self esteem for some reason...dont know why, so its probably wrong :p
Which house then would rule a persons self esteem....I kind of think its a measurable quality....so is finance really when you break it down...its only a measurement....dunno....what do you think?

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

My first guess would be the First house (seeing as how the operative word in self-esteem is "self"). However, I know in decumbiture charts the Eleventh house is indicative of the mental attitude of the patient. So, if their Eleventh house is weak, they're more likely to just give up and not care, which prolongs their sickness. The stronger the Eleventh, the more likely they are to keep positive and recover. The mind is an amazing thing, after all, and I can see how this connects strongly to the idea of self-esteem. If you feel good about yourself, you're more confident and more likely to succeed, just like if you're sick and you believe you're going to get better, chances are you will.

I'll look into it, though.

[Looking to Jupiter]

Julie,
Good ol saturn was bound to fit in there somewhere in relation to self sabotage...(why didnt i think of that? I woke up at 3.30 am this morning...lol...only time of the day i can get to myself) Perhaps a well aspected saturn would be indicative of a person who didnt do such a thing, and was disciplined enough to make the right choices????(sat in cap for example)...
I understand about doing things detrimental to myself, because of fear of failing. Your not the only one...:) My saturn placement is pathetic...lol...in cancer, cadent.....totally rubbish.......your comments are making lots of sense.

Kai,
Your a wealth of knowledge sometimes:).....I would never had looked to the 11th, but there again, I have only skimmed over decumbiture... (like, i know how to spell it now....lol) I guess i have to read more.....
The first house, for sure.....

[Arian Maverick]

Perhaps a well aspected saturn would be indicative of a person who didnt do such a thing, and was disciplined enough to make the right choices????(sat in cap for example)...

A strong Saturn can be a blessing or a curse--sometimes a mixture of the two. Yes, such a placement can indicate dicipline, but have you ever considered that an individual could feel a such strong need to be in control of situations that he or she self-sabotages by strictly regulating his or her diet or exercise regime, activities that, if done in excess, could possibly lead to an eating disorder? Don't get me wrong; I don't think Saturn is the main indicator of eating disorders or that individuals with strong Saturns or more vulnerable than the general population. I've just read that many individuals develop eating disorders because they need to feel in control of some aspect of their lives. I know we weren't specifically talking about eating disorders, but this is one of the greatest examples I can think of--this and drug abuse, although drug use is more Neptunian than Saturnian.

There are almost infinite ways an individual can self sabotage, however; it's so much more than damaging one's health. I personally think it stems from an inherent belief that one is somehow not good enough, perhaps not worthy of life. Yet instead of attacking oneself directly, one can adapt unconscious patterns of behavior than decrease one's life expectancy or quality of life. This sort of reminds me of the life vs. death impulses in psychology...

I believe a more specific question one can ask while studying a natal chart: How does one self sabotage?

Arian Maverick

[aquarius7000]

I was thinking that the 2nd links with a persons self esteem for some reason...You were right in thinking so, LtJ. Second house is the house of personal resources in all respects - be they innate or acquired - and thereby this house is also connected with self-worth and self-esteem, as well as your value systems.

As far as self sabotage goes - well, sometimes, I too knowingly say or do things that I know are going to in some way 'harm' me. I have Saturn opposing my Moon and Mars. So, I am inclined to believe that Saturn's role in this respect, together with either Sun or Moon being involved, might be near about irrefutable.

:oaquarius7000

[hermetic]

A strong Saturn can be a blessing or a curse--sometimes a mixture of the two. Yes, such a placement can indicate dicipline, but have you ever considered that an individual could feel a such strong need to be in control of situations that he or she self-sabotages by strictly regulating his or her diet or exercise regime, activities that, if done in excess, could possibly lead to an eating disorder? Don't get me wrong; I don't think Saturn is the main indicator of eating disorders or that individuals with strong Saturns or more vulnerable than the general population. I've just read that many individuals develop eating disorders because they need to feel in control of some aspect of their lives. I know we weren't specifically talking about eating disorders, but this is one of the greatest examples I can think of--this and drug abuse, although drug use is more Neptunian than Saturnian.

There are almost infinite ways an individual can self sabotage, however; it's so much more than damaging one's health. I personally think it stems from an inherent belief that one is somehow not good enough, perhaps not worthy of life. Yet instead of attacking oneself directly, one can adapt unconscious patterns of behavior than decrease one's life expectancy or quality of life. This sort of reminds me of the life vs. death impulses in psychology...

I believe a more specific question one can ask while studying a natal chart: How does one self sabotage?

Arian Maverick

I couldn't agree with this more. Saturn is all about self sabotage in my case. And it is supposedly very strong, strongest planet in my chart, in Libra, conj Spica, conj Pluto, in 4th. And yes, it is something I believe to be the cause for my disordered eating that lasts for a decade now.
To everyone else I am sabotaging myself. To me, it is about being in control. This goes back and forth in intensity depending on life situation, but it is something I will probably stuggle with forever.
It's been very damaging for my health, but this need to have control over what enters my body cannot be overcome by a mere concern over your bones, or teeth or sanity. It comes first. Pluto with Saturn just adds fuel to this fire.
Ok, this was my self sabotaging story... :o

I agree on the 12th house tho - especially with luminaries there, I've seen people do some very self destructive things

[psyrens_aurora]

Hi all.

I have been thinking about self sabotage. You know, making decisions that are not the best choice for a persons own well being. I do it alot, and i think its my moon and sun in the 12th. But I doubt thats the only configuration.
How would you guys see such a thing in a chart? I am starting to think perhaps its quite a common thing, so thats why i am keen to make some astro sense of it......
(Do you think the second house would be somewhere to look?)


Hm. I have Sun Moon (and Venus) in the 12th and I self sabatoge all the time. try reading The House Book by Stephanie Camilleri. she talks about Ego (the Sun) and how we, in 12th, have trouble using it and can either underuse it or overuse it, to our own expense! i think, like you said, other configurations (such as 2nd house) can corroborate this theme or, better, balance it!

[psyrens_aurora]

Arian maverick, you might consider opening a thread with this, you wrote it above and it would be so neat to figure out....
I believe a more specific question one can ask while studying a natal chart: How does one self sabotage?

i said i have a heavy 12th house influence, and also hard aspects from saturn (to my sun/moon in 12th!) BUT I ALSO HAVE SATURN IN FIRST HOUSE............?

transits excite or ignite our natal influences, so whatever is inherent in us natally is just going to be exacerbated by whatever is going on in the sky right now.

sometimes i get overloaded trying to know what is what, but generally i know that what i am is the natal chart, and what is happening is the transitting.........

BLAH!

[starlink]

Psychologically the 2nd house does show your self esteem LtJ, it is only finances in a worldly view, like the 8th is other people's money worldly seen, but (financial and/or emotional) support (or not) from others (or your partner).
I have seen self-sabotage when the ruler of the Ascendant is squaring or opposing the Ascendant.(like you are squaring yourself. ) Also when it conjuncts the Ascendant from the 12th house side and badly aspected, often by Jupiter believe it or not. (self overestimation. Is this correct English?).

Of course planets like Neptune in the 12th are also conductive of selfdestruction. Pills and drugs dont really help you and then yes, when you have a low selfesteem, then you could quickly come to doing something silly.
But self-destructive patterns dont only relate to doing something physical to yourself. You can also self destruct when you behave in an A-social way. Then we often see people who are very full of themselves. Sun/Jupiter aspects come to mind and people who misuse their power and get into trouble, prison etc. So 12th house, Pluto and Uranus. Loads of different combinations really.

Cheers, Star.

[psyrens_aurora]

I disagree that 2nd house involves "little more" than finances, because I have read so many various astrological texts that indicate the 2nd house involves SELF ESTEEM. I think that it is healthy for us to not get too materialized, though, meaning that to think of finances as NOT affecting our self-worth is indicative of a healthy non-materialistic view, but Taurus and the 2nd house and Venus are about self-worth. Venus rules Taurus and Libra, both materialistic signs which give expressions of Love when positively enriched.

to put value on something (if you don't value yourself, you won't think you deserve anything that you put in high esteem).

in this material day and age, celebrities with their designer clothes, a lot of people who DONT HAVE MUCH MONEY and can't afford to LOOK as though they just came from the SPA, manicures, glistening skin, can develop feelings of not being "as good".

yes, that sounds horrible, but it happens a lot. to ignore how much money, status, etc effects self-esteem (and later, causes eating disorders, drug abuse, other forms of self-sabatoge such as stealing or not showing up to work or other obligations due to Self-Worth and not wanting to feel badly), i think to ignore this is to have trouble understanding why the 2nd house IS IN FACT the house of SELF-WORTH!!! many astrology books explain that the 2nd house IS THE HOUSE OF SELF WORTH. that's why several of us have mentioned with honest belief that the 2nd house is the HOUSE OF SELF-WORTH.

[psyrens_aurora]

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/secondhouse.htm

"The Second House shows the state of your money and possessions, the things that you value, including your sense of self worth."



! notice how the issue of Self-worth is affected with each of the planets in 2nd house !

[aquarius7000]

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/secondhouse.htm
"The Second House shows the state of your money and possessions, the things that you value, including your sense of self worth."

! notice how the issue of Self-worth is affected with each of the planets in 2nd house !

We agree, we agree Psyrens_Aurora;).

Most of us have said the same thing, that house 2 is (also) about self-worth/ esteem, in our previous posts.

:)aquarius7000

[Nate of the 12th]

I do it too. I often consciously make decisions that make me suffer.
4 times Taurus stellium in 12th, Cap moon in 8th square Pluto & square Mars
I think it starts up as a moon thing (caring for oneself) and then passes through to the sun (self-image). Then they work together to destroy the person.

[aquarius7000]

Nate,

Just curious, can you check and tell me, if there's any involvement of Saturn in your case - like in connection with Moon/Sun/Ven through aspects, or does Saturn rule any of the houses where either of them are placed...?
Your Pluto sq Moon (I have it too) is also an indicator, but am curious about the Saturn part.

:)aquarius7000

[Nate of the 12th]

I don't have significant Saturn contacts.... (Sag is on the 8th)
My mom on the other hand is strongly Saturnian, but she is not usually self-sabotaging, certainly not nearing me

[Claire19]

[quote=Looking to Jupiter]Hi all.

I have been thinking about self sabotage. You know, making decisions that are not the best choice for a persons own well being. I do it alot, and i think its my moon and sun in the 12th. But I doubt thats the only configuration.
How would you guys see such a thing in a chart? I am starting to think perhaps its quite a common thing, so thats why i am keen to make some astro sense of it......
(Do you think the second house would be somewhere to look?)

cheers
I presume you refer to the 2nd house as the house of self worth. It is more a material house and the security that derives from having enough money, possessions and a place to live etc. It does indicate our values and how we regard the earning and spending of resources.l

THe 12th house is the area of self undoing and relate to the past and karmic issues. A past life regression may shed light on this if you are open to that. Also look at Neptune and Saturn.

Post your chart and we can get a fuller picture.

[Raindrops]

I'd say it is mostly the afflicted 12th house or any afflicted pisces in the chart.
An acquaintance I knew for years self-sabotaged EVERYTHING! It was quite a pain. She had an afflicted 12th house/Pisces stellium. Her ASC ruler was one of thos planets as well. I read that this causes the person to have many misunderstandings with others. Boy, was this true. She would destroy that which was most precious to her --- every time there was a misunderstanding.

If her feelings were very hurt, she would take her favorite painting and tear it up. Or tear the pages out of her favorite book. Or rip her nails off. ---Always dramatically in front of you (never in private). She one time confided in me that this was to show the person how much she needed pity.

Actually, her entire life did not go well because she self-sabotaged everything. One time a gentleman offered to help her repair her sink (something she desperately wanted for 10 years). Since she didn't like him, she told him no. Later she told me that she'd made that decision so that one day he'd feel sorry about how much she wanted it. She self-sabotaged hoping people would pity her. And she self-sabotaged to destroy that which was most dear to her. Basically, she wanted to be seen as a victim.

The interesting thing is that she married someone else with planets in the 12th and Pisces. BOTH then wanted to be seen as victims. Needless to say, after several years, the relationship deteriorated and separated because both parties could not be the victim during each agreement. Being a victim is terribly important to these people.

Very sad. =(


Note: I've read that natal Neptune squares cause self-sabotage as well (perhaps this is done in private). Things like pulling out hair, self-hurt, cutting...

[starlink]

Just another quick remark. What I also have seen with self-sabotaging is the ruler of the 1st house square to the Ascendant.
Litterally this would be read as you (ruler) squaring yourself (Ascendant).
Then look where that planet is situated, which sign and house (does that planet feel at ease there) and other aspects. If the Ascendant is ruled by two planets, traditional and modern, look at both and see if one of them squares the Asc. Maybe it is also possible with the opposition to the Ascendant.
Furthermore a strong connection between one of the personal planets and the ruler of the 12th house, especially the difficult aspects, would seem to me as indicators.
Starlink

[aquarius7000]

What I also have seen with self-sabotaging is the ruler of the 1st house square to the Ascendant...Maybe it is also possible with the opposition to the Ascendant. Well, I would think so that an opposition then might also show a tendency towards self-sabotage, simply going by the fact that an opposition is basically the elevation of a square, as in, it is just that bit more challenging and stressful than a square. Well then, I'd better watch out, as I have the ruler of my first house, Sun, placed just at the DC in a tight conjunction with Mer, and both tauntingly oppose the Rising.:rolleyes:

:Daquarius7000

[starlink]

and both tauntingly oppose the Rising
Oh boy!! But you must have figured that out by now I think, dont you? I mean if you have, in the past, sabotaged yourself a bit? Dont we all at times, really....:)

[NYAstroMan]

Hey.
I would have to agree with those who spoke about the moons roll in the selfesteem issue. Look at where the Moon is in the chart. As has been said, the 12 house plays a big roll. I never thought too much about the second house roll in this area, but I have Virgo on the second with pluto in Libra in the second. I will think about that one.

[aquarius7000]

Oh boy!! But you must have figured that out by now I think, dont you? I mean if you have, in the past, sabotaged yourself a bit? Dont we all at times, really....:)Well, sabotaged myself physically, nope, never, but mentally, and that's the tough part to put a finger on, as you can't see the self-inflicted wounds clearly on the outside, so yes, perhaps I too have/ still do at times. In fact, with my Aquarian planets, and nervous Uranus in three, mental activity (air sign) can be nagging & strenuous to the extent that it gives you clinical insomnia, well, almost:eek:. Just to mention in the passing, my Pluto is also very well networked in my chart...:rolleyes:.

But yes, I agree, a little bit of self-sabotage in some way (be it emotionally, mentally, physically) is in the human nature.

:rolleyes:aquarius7000

[Raindrops]

I have noticed 3 different types of self sabotage:

Tons of planets in the 6th House/Virgo (perhaps afflicted). I bought this "dead skin remover" and I scrubbed my hands with it happily in excess... OMG they hurt for 4 days afterward. I also have mars/uranus aspect so maybe that helps in the process of being so detirmined to get clean (both planets are in the 6th). Completely retarded. I'll never do that again =P.

My friend has sun square neptune by 1 degree. She hair-pulls and hits herself until she's bruised if she's highly stressed out.

And then there are planets in the 12th house... and self sabotaging for the sake of others or to bring attention to yourself.

[aquarius7000]

My friend has sun square neptune by 1 degree. She hair-pulls and hits herself until she's bruised if she's highly stressed out.Yes, this reminds me of somebody I knew too, not ver long ago, who used to pinch, like dig into her skin so deeply everytime somebody had like been mean or rude to her at the univ, or hurt her pride etc, that she would perpetually have red blotches on her arms, and she would actually tell me and another close friend about it, esp when we would ask her as to why she was dressed full-sleeved in scorching heat. She had a twelfth house Saturn squaring her Sco Sun. I do think sometimes that there is a certain sadism attached to Saturn, but perhaps there might have also been other aspects in her chart to show this, which I can't recall any more.

:)aquarius7000

[starlink]

I do think sometimes that there is a certain sadism attached to Saturn
and how about masochism? People who do these things have as serious psychological problem and need help I am afraid. They hurt themselves in order to punish themselves and it all comes from subconscious guiltfeelings, very tragic.

[dd198]

It seems like I am always in self-destruct mode. I am even aware of it and know the consequences and yet I still follow through with it. Why can't I get it together? Do I just have some serious mental issues or does it all fall to some very badly aspected planets?

[R4VEN]

Post your chart, dd198, so we can all see what you have to contend with.

[dd198]

14609

My chart

[R4VEN]

I read through this thread before I got to your post, dd198, and what was alluded to was Saturn. In your chart I can see that Neptune has a very strong `hold' over much of your chart.

But first to Saturn. You have tr Saturn passing through your 1st house of ego and identity, so this is a good time in which to be examining how it is you `travel' through life, and especially since you are approaching your first Saturn return. You have Moon's South Node in Capricorn in the 4th. This means that your `safe' place is in serving those who are in your family group - relatives and close family members. Perhaps you have been quite enmeshed with family, and yet deep inside yourself you know that you have a need to serve your own needs somehow, sometime.
These links may help you to understand the part your nodes play in this behaviour:
http://northnodeastrology.blogspot.com/search/label/South%20Node%20Fourth%20House%20%28Cancer%29%20Nor th%20Node%20Tenth%20House%20%28Capricorn%29
http://northnodeastrology.blogspot.com/search/label/Squares%20to%20the%20Nodes

The second link refers to the planet you have which is squaring your nodal axis. You have natal Saturn squaring the nodes, and I expect your Saturn return to `expose' how this square blocks your life path.

Now to Neptune - yours is in Sag, and conjunct your IC, and it also squares your Asc-Dec axis, your Mars and your Venus, and it is inconjunct your Mercury - itself your chart ruler, so even your chart ruler (Mercury) is shaded in with a touch of Neptune. Neptune blurs boundaries, creates false ideas about the self, and can easily feed delusions - about others as well as yourself. Essentially you have an out-of-sign t-square between Mars, venus and Neptune, with Neptune being the apex of this t-square. This means that the energy build-up within the Venus-Mars opposition - which could create a lot of tension within you - only has Neptune as an outlet....... and Neptune is hazy and fuzzy and indistinct. I suspect that - like most heavily Neptunian people - you have learned to deal with your inner stress by looking after others' needs, perhaps believing that this will placate others, so leaving you free to get on with your own life. Alas - once you begin to deny yourself what it is you need, this becomes habitual, and others expect it. The next step is unconscious self-sabotage.

The key to breaking this cycle of self-denial is in figuring out why you do it. OK, so no-one in their right mind self-sabotages what it is they really, really want, do they? This is a very common reaction to your sensitivity to the stress you feel in others. Your Mars-Neptune square means that you will hesitate to act once you feel stress or potential opposition in your environment.

I won't elaborate any further, because I need to know if this resonates with you first.

PS: And I needed to add my thoughts on what others on this thread have said about self-esteem..........
Self-sabotage is not always a self-esteem issue at its core - in your case I believe that it is an issue to do with your sensitivity (perhaps unconscious) to the will and desires of those who live in your environment. Perhaps you have even `picked up' an hereditary habit from your family line, and are simply acting this out. Perhaps it has little to do with you personally. Neptune on your IC could produce this kind of behaviour (as Neptune can render you so sensitive that it is as though you have `no skin'), because as you describe it, it sounds like it is not in your conscious control.

[Kannon]

dd,

without looking at your chart first, what you're describing is related usually to 12th house, S.Node, and possibly Saturn-related matters.... now I'll look at your chart....

[Kannon]

The answer lies mostly in the dynamic between Saturn and your nodal axis forming a t-square. There may be an issue with impulsive behaviors (Mars), but what you're most likely looking at is the result of inhibition (Saturn square) of moving forward (N.Node) because of worries over repeating past mistakes or tendencies (S.Node) or actually repeating those things because they are more familiar (illusion = safer) and easier than moving forward.

Your chart also shows Neptune square Asc. If your Asc is correct, then this aspect can show a dynamic of self-doubt or sacrificing what you want from subconscious issues of deservedness. Or maybe its pretty conscious - after the fact.

The nodal axis (and Saturn part in it) shows you really need to learn from your early life experiences and relationships in order to understand yourself and your power as you move forward in life.

[ariana]

I have afflicted stellium (sun, mercury, venus) in 12 in cancer.
moon is afflicted (opposed to pluto) in aries.
plus i have a saturn conjoint mars in scorpio. so might depend of the situation, but i can self sabotage myself easily, even unconsiously, and then realised why did i act like that. sometimes in a conversation i cant not even say the logical sentence i have in my mind, no, i have to say the supidiest thing, just to make sure i wont show myself clever. and then realize how stupid i am, wich makes me wanna hurt myself afterwards.
i get stuck, like if something in me get sabotaing myself all the time....that saturn.....i know he has all the fault... and the pluto too.

but the thing i sabotage myself with the most is when it comes to relations with men. i have capricorn in 7 house cuspide. so that mars conjunct saturn dosent help at all.

but does someone know: i've read mars conjoint saturn make the person stronger when it comes to determination, to will power, to handle emotions.... but is it really that way? am i only just taking run of it?or is it being all about sabotage? :crying:

[Surprise]

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