View Full Version : Is there such thing as a doomed natal chart?
07-02-2008, 06:57 PM
Honestly, and I know this is going to be a bit controversial, but do you think there are people who have charts that are so stressful and have so little room to maneuver that it appears as if they are doomed?If so, do you believe this is where karma comes into play? What about someone who has made the effort to try and change their life, but the planetary energies never allow this, therefore the odds are stacked against them? I don't know if I believe this, I am just wondering what other folks thinks about this..
07-02-2008, 07:10 PM
There are people with uphill charts, such as being born with Saturn sq Moon, for instance, but there are no doomed charts for people.
There are, however, doomed charts for ships, space shuttles and so forth.
The difference is that a human being has consciousness and can alter their direction, as described by the planetary influences, but a space shuttle can not. I am, of course, referring to space shuttle Columbia specifically.
Also when you study ships that have sunk in war, these facts become apparent.
I saw the chart of a kid found decomposed in his basement, and there were squares and Oppositions everywhere. Obviously from the chart, you could see his mother wasn't much of a good one, and that was proved in the courts.
I wonder sometimes what could have resulted of him. Could he have become a thug like his father or a rigorous achiever? Who knows. But there were so many stress aspects in his chart for a five year old, and I don't know if he could've overcome them. It certainly would've been hard.
Sometimes people have no hope and bury themselves in their problems, but even the smallest amount of hope can transform someone. Even one person who enlightened your life can totally turn it around. People with too many easy aspects never strive enough for things. Think about someone who has everything and compare them with someone who's never had enough. Who's going to want more?
Squares and Opposition are tough, but they push you into action. They can represent the hunger to achieve.
07-02-2008, 07:45 PM
With some really difficult charts the early life can be hard but depending on the person and how they internalise their experience it can greatly affect the rest of their life. There are some charts that don't look particulay any "worse" than any other chart yet they have had tough experiences. Here is a chart of a man stabbed 76 times, but I have no birth time for it. I don't see anything that would make a chart doomed. The Mars/Jupiter/Neptune config in Sagittarius and the "excessive victim of violence" can be interpreted but looked another way you would think it was the chart of a very spiritual person who could be actively involved in broad philosophies and concepts. Or a very adventurous person whose actions can be VERY grand with large visions on life and dreams but may even be deceptive, and not very good at dealing with reality and it's limitations (Fire/water) grandiosity. You can see how "broad" the symbolism in the chart can be. But you are the driver of your chart and you make choices on how you react to life. I do believe parts of life are fated I wouldn't say doomed but we have control on how we want to parcipate in life. :)
My answer: No. :)
To assume that a person is doomed because of his/her chart also assumes, in my opinion, absolute determinism. This means that we are born with no choices. Our lives are predetermined.
We can see who has difficult charts, but we don't know the strength/evolution of the "native", and that means that some people who appear doomed manage to rise above it all and live extraordinary lives.
My opinion, of course!
07-02-2008, 07:56 PM
Julie, do you know the circumstances of the stabbing?
07-02-2008, 08:06 PM
No, I guess you can imagine all kinds of circumstances which may have led to this stabbing. It could have been anyone, it is a very extreme killing and the person/person's who stabbed this man is obviously mad. The planets the houses fell in would have been interesting but still I am not sure you can see anything "doomed" in the chart. After a terrible event we can all say oh look at this aspect and so on, it is obviously a very conflicted chart, but this could have been the chart of a spiritual leader and everyone would be saying oh look those wonderful chart placements look how they have driven the person to succeed etc. (you see it all around forum's) we should admire the person behind the chart for getting through adversity, rather than the chart placements.
Out of curiosity though I would have liked to have known the circumstances which lead to the killing.
07-02-2008, 08:10 PM
Im thinking it was someone under the influence of drugs, someone mentally ill..or crime of passion.
07-02-2008, 08:17 PM
I just found the information on the web, and it is little on detail, a man broke into his home, and it was called aggravated assault, the man who killed him tried to lie and say he only stabbed him once. I will try to read some more for details. I am not sure if they knew eachother or whether the killer was a stranger.
After a terrible event we can all say oh look at this aspect and so on, it is obviously a very conflicted chart, but this could have been the chart of a spiritual leader and everyone would be saying oh look those wonderful chart placements look how they have driven the person to succeed etc. (you see it all around forum's) we should admire the person behind the chart for getting through adversity, rather than the chart placements.
That's a good point, and it also stresses the fact that astrologers are amazingly good at "proving" why things happenó*after* they have happened!
07-02-2008, 08:56 PM
The murder was over money or an argument apparently the person who murdered him hugged the family and was apologetic for their loss this was before he was charged with the murder. The Mars/Neptune/Jupiter conjunction in the man's chart also symbolized (now that I know the information) that he travelled from a young age, travelling with the army by the time he was 14 months, the father was stationed out of the country a lot, the father mentioned he wished he could have had money to cover the kind of care his son needed, I am not sure what this means but maybe the son had some problems adapting to life but I can't be sure. The man loved music and poetry, beautiful cars and was very good with electronics must have been the Sun Aqua to Uranus in trine and Mercury in Capricorn square Uranus. His mother said he was deeply sad and lonely and was a prey for murder. It was a senseless murder and people who commit it should be sentenced to death not put in jail. But this is the "justice" system. I am not sure how long the man was sent to jail for the murder.
But as Gaer said we can see clearly what has happened and how an aspect has manifested after the event. Don't forget I have no birth time for this chart and many people were born on this day. House placements would have told us more but the more you learn about the people behind the charts you do see all the different variations in the way a chart fits into the reality of life for the individual. :)
07-02-2008, 10:31 PM
With some really difficult charts the early life can be hard but depending on the person and how they internalise their experience it can greatly affect the rest of their life...
..This means that we are born with no choices. Our lives are predetermined.:confused: Ok, I am just thinking out aloud now... How the native of a difficult chart might internalise his experience, or, before that, even react to the moment - wouldn't that depend on, say for e.g., how 'airy' the Mercury is (Gemnini/Aqua Merc) of the person - to be able to 'intellectualise' the circumstance and be able to think detachedly and unemotionally in a situation, and say to the self/ the mind, let me keep my head straight, and not drown myself in depression and self-pity..., an attitude or state of mind that say a water sign (at least a watery moon, or a moon or mer neg. aspected by Saturn) might be more predisposed to. Again a 'Martian' person, thanks to his/her strong Mars in the chart, would 'bring along' the Martian assertiveness to fight a difficult circumstance out to the bitter end.. What I'm trying to say, or still thank out aloud is:rolleyes:, doesn't fate indeed play a big role, and don't the mere placements and aspects of planets in our individual charts actually 'predetermine' our lives to quite an extent, at least, if we believe in astrology. We are not even considering here what/ how much our prior lives, the so-called Karma package that we enter the present lives with, 'regulate' our present lives...ie of course, if we believe in the theory of Karma at all...
Though I, personally, go more with free will and the ability to think - privileges of us human beings - but aren't our thought processes and our actions also connected to/ based on all those lines and angles in our charts to quite an extent. The rest of it is decided by extrinsic factors like surroundings, up-bringing, the circumstances themselves etc.... So, it is perhaps like an interplay of various factors - on the basis of which we make of our lives into what they ultimately become..
07-03-2008, 10:37 AM
Yes there is a lot more that comes into play like the situation you are born into, your upbringing etc. And yes we have the ability through our thinking to rationalize, be objective, and most importantly make choices. As astrologer's we know some personality traits are pre-determined. When your only just born you haven't really had any parental influence to determine any personality - yet you already have a Natal Chart with aspects and planets in signs/house indicating personality and emotional patterns already formed.
I have two charts I might post later which are very similar as they were born 10 days apart, I posted one of the charts a while ago in a thread which had an Aries/Pisces emphasis the chart is very eye catching to look at, and I found a similar chart to this man's with his biography. It would be interesting to compare the two lives and how they differ and where there are similarities between them, obviously because planets are in different houses there are differences and there is a different soul behind the chart. But there where similar personality "quirks" that both men possessed. I would have to look at the charts and biographies again in more detail.
Yes there is a lot more that comes into play like the situation you are born into, your upbringing etc.
I think we have to carefully consider genetics too.
For instance, identical twins born only minutes apart are often so incredibly similar that they seem like one person split into two (which is almost true biologically).
On the other hand, fraternal twins, even when born minutes apart, are often incredibly different in intelligence, disposition, etc.
When only born minutes apart, I don't think the minor differences in the charts is enough to explain all the other differences, and for that reason I continue to view a natal chart, no matter how accurately cast and wisely interpreted, as only a set of factors among many others. :)
And that's why I don't think that any natal chart or any set of transits dooms anyone!
07-03-2008, 10:49 PM
Excellent point, Gaer.
Good use of the "Twins Paradox" for a constructive astrological line of reasoning.... I will recall this one.
07-06-2008, 03:00 PM
I think there are Doomed charts!
07-06-2008, 03:07 PM
hopefully a doomed chart will be overcome, but i think there are worse charts to have than others. and transits are "going to happen", so a natal chart is predestined to experience certain transits. that, and it is composited/synastried with parents, neighbors, strangers, etc. The victim would be in composite/synastried with the energies of the man who killed him. a transit would indicate someone like that coming into his life. karma indicates whether we can overcome or not. bad karma is real, it really exists, and some people really do have it. some have it so bad, they are doomed. to say bad karma can't be that intense is to give everyone the same karma: CAN OVERCOME ANYTHING. that just isn't true! some people can't.
07-06-2008, 04:14 PM
In order to complement and balance out my previous post, I'd like to add today the following thoughts: Progressions and Transits seem to be just the Key to Growth and Development as we move on in life 'founded' on our natal planetary placements.
The natal chart might show certain set patterns, or say, contain 'raw material' that we are made up of, 'exclusive' to each individual. (Sorry, if this sounds silly). It's like the natal planetary placements sort of give you your basic foundation and calibre (planets in signs) in certain areas (houses). The transits activate this calibre giving you the opportunity to work with it, and thereby work on yourself and your life - hence grow with change.
The natal placements might lay the foundation, but the planetary returns (solar, lunar, saturn) and progressions will point out the the direction as is necessary and suitable in a certain phase of life; and transits (being more dynamic) will mobilize you, set you in action, and allow you to turn left or right on that path of life. I think this is what we mean by transformtion and evolution - some of a more individual nature, and some mainly generational.
Look at those Saturn transits - they will come and show you your strengths and weeknesses 'in your face'; that what has been long ignored and not 'mended', and so demanding from you to clear up and take suitable action. And it is only when we choose to fight this 'natural' process, is it forced on us, the effects then being felt more harshly felt.
So yes, one chart might certainly be more 'challenging' than another, but the more challenging one will bring along more potential for growth with itself, and it is upto us (as doers) to take action. That is where free will steps in. And, so, this would negate any hypothetical assumption of there being "such thing as a doomed natal chart"
Just my opinion
07-11-2008, 08:58 PM
No, not doomed. Just living the destiny/karma if you will, that they picked this time around. When I see addicts and homeless people and they never change their ways, or try to improve it makes me feel sad. But then I do think it is their chart, and they are here on that level, to live that life.
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