Was I abused?

[AnnaViolet7]

Hello,

I went to an Astrologer who is also trained in Psychology of Vision it was a session called Healing Your Birth Story and she helped me to work thru my childhood traumas with visualisation...she also seeemed to be saying that she could see abuse from my father even tho I may not be able to remember it..I went into shock and still have not really told anyone about it as without a memory it does not seem right to say it happened...I have spoken to the homeopath about it thats all not told anyone else...She says that as I am a sensitive person it could have effected me the same way as though it had happened cos I was there in that environment at the time...She said it is just my way of trying to take control back and that I dont need to know whether it happened but I feel differently it would help me to heal to know...

I would really appreciate it if anyone can help me with this I am not scared of knowing it would help me.

Blessings,

Anna
(chart below)

[Junke]

Truthfully, if you were abused, I would expect to see many hard aspects to the Luminaries, or at least even one, or at least have them afflicted in some way...Both are strongly/happily placed in strong/lucky house...

Some people say that a Pisces Moon suggest abuse in childhood, so I don't know...

Anyway, If you were, due to your lack of hard aspects, You probably have the ease to get over or it, or not let it affect you.

[waybread]

The one planetary pair of which I am aware that does seem related to abusive fathers are afflicted Pluto-Sun contacts such as the opposition. Yours are not in a major aspect. So this does not mean that your father did/did not abuse you, but just that you can write off this one possibility. Sometimes, however, parents can behave in ways that their children interpret as unwholesome or offensive [such as nudity around the house] even without the parent meaning to. I do not know what "grooming" means in your context, but the fact that you describe it as "wierd stuff" makes me wonder if you felt that your psychic space was invaded. Though obviously a father would have to look after his kids' hygiene to some degree. I would think your mother's abrupt departure appears in your moon square Uranus.

You might want to ask that astrologer what she saw in your chart that appeared to be abuse. And hopefully, you can do some therapy with a licensed clinical psychologist.

I note that you have the asteroid Ceres in a powerful position conjunct your MC. You might enjoy reading her mythology about childhood loss and redemption. The Greek names for her and her daughter are Demeter and Persephone.

[EJ53]

One thing I noticed about my chart is that Pluto is in the 1st house........

Hi Anna,

Actually, Pluto is sitting on the Ascendant - sending out a clear message of "I dare you to mess with me".

As you know/posted on another thread, the Chiron wound in Taurus makes a contribution here by giving you deep feelings of insecurity - and a slightly earlier birthtime would push this into the 8th house (ruled by Pluto), which is sometimes associated with sex.

So, what has probably happened here is that you have been made to feel "powerless" in some way(s) as a child - abused, but not necessarily (or even probably) sexually. And I think your astrologer was right in advising you that you do not need to identify the cause in order to eliminate it's effects.


EJ:)

[Natasha]

You have a stellium in the 7th (others) and Pluto in your 1st house (you)
When we have many planets in our 7th house we can see others doing or reflecting back to us (which can be confusing of course)
Also having Neptune in the 3rd could make remembering the childhood possibly in a hazy way or we may see it in a way it was not.

The 1st house Pluto gives you a powerful personality persona - Mick Jagger is an example of a 1st house Pluto - of course he is almost a archytype of it and most ordinary folk like you and I would not live it out archytypically like that
But its still a powerful personality projection and is not a victim
I think that the journey of one with a 7th house sun and stellium is integrating and accepting in us, what the 7th house hand mirror (venus glyph) reflects back to us

It could be that we integrate and accept our right to be a sensual relating person on all different levels including the erotic

[Jeremy]

I would like to add a couple of observations to this discussion, because I have worked with three cases of childhood abuse and only one of them was very clear natally. This was the aforementioned Su/Pl opposition.

A second case had no aspect from Sun to Pluto although upon closer examination there was a contraparallel between them that was more or less partile.

The third and most recent case was a friend of mine who was abused when Pluto contacted Venus (thus the dark side of love) by Solar Arc when she was 7, in this case an uncle was the abuser and actually I mentioned the SA contact to her and she said during the consultation that she couldn't think of anything but woke up that night in a cold sweat with the whole experience having come back to her. She had a very difficult few days but I do believe that she has been helped immensely by clearing this terrible experience.

So, with that in mind I would say that it is not always so simple as looking at mundane natal aspects. If I were to apply the Solar Arc method to contacts between Sun and Pluto (which as has already been mentioned are indicative of paternal abuse) then this also seems unlikely due to the ages suggested, but as has also been already mentioned there is an indication of controlling or abusive violence by SA applying Pluto to Mars when you were aged somewhat before your 11th birthday. With the ruler of the 10th in Pisces in the 5th there may be some sexual confusion that relates to the father, Mars often transmutes sexual aggression into physical violence so that may hold a clue and it may be that he was struggling with dark feelings himself, and particularly with no wife at his side, this may have led to the confusion that is indicated by Moon in Pisces in the 5th being indicative of some key paternal themes in your life.

I hope this offers some insight for you, the previous comments are also quite astute in my opinion.

Jeremy

[AnnaViolet7]

Hi All,

Thanks appreciate all the replies.

Junke- Hmmn I have read that before, that Pisces Moon points to an unusual childhood which mine certainly was..Also to cult-activity which Jehovahs Witnesses are one...

Waybread- I have heard of those planets indicating abuse...I was abused emotionally and physically.Very difficult to deal with all of it.Always wondered why I couldnt see indications of it in my chart although maybe as Junke says that is because I am able to deal with it and stop it ruining my life now...Yes I thought that Moon Uranus indicated my mum leaving. Thank you I will read more about Ceres...funny I did a Goddess Archetype quiz the other day and my highest score was Demeter...

EJ53- Thank you, that makes sense.

Natasha- So events in my life are reflecting back something within me...do you think that is so even from childhood? Yes I did have memory blocks for a long time there wasnt much I could remember about my childhood I had blocked it out as a means of preservation in some ways also with the J.W. thing it is brainwashing they reiterate the same things over and over again in such a way and so frequently that I remember going to their meetings and having many thoughts in my mind and then coming out and my mind being absolulty empty..that made my mind very hazy. A Shaman did a Soul Retrieval for me and after that though the memories began to come back..memory loss can happen when there is much trauma and a part of the Soul can hide itself to protect it...I agree though I always felt different and an outsider when I was younger but not a victim I am a very strong person...I can see what you are saying about Mick Jagger I didnt know he's got Pluto in 1st..

Jeremy- Hmmn well I consider my father to be an extremely abusive person and there is not much to show it so I agree I dont think it is always clear from a natal chart...That must have been so tough for your friend but necessary to be conscious of it to heal what happened...
When the Astrologer said to me that she thought I had been abused at first I did not register it really and then went in to a state of exteme shock...and her cat was sat on my knee and it pressed itself to my solar plexus when she said this...she said it was trying to absorb the shock for me...I dont know..that reading left me so confused I think like someone else suggested I may email her and ask her what she saw in my chart to indicate this abuse...Yes the Pluto/Mars thing makes sense..and I guess I have a lot of healing to do in regards my father...I realised this when someone else pointed out this may be why I keep attracting men who arent any good for me...distant emotionally unavailable etc..As for my father he had already way crossed over the line with my mother sexually and with other violence...another thing which doesnt show in my chart as the Sun and Moon are in harmonious aspect to one another...It makes me wonder if my birth time may be out...


Thank you everyone for replying,

Anna

[waybread]

Hi All,

Thanks appreciate all the replies.

Waybread- I have heard of those planets indicating abuse...I was abused emotionally and physically if there were things we loved they were taken away and he would make us throw them in the bin ourselves...he deleted all my mums messages for us so we thought she had forgoten all about us and did not know where she was...As for weird stuff well to be specific he made us touch him when pretending to give a sex-ed talk and also made me touch myself in front of him then hit me with a belt and said it was my fault...He always used his belts on me with my knickers down...and if I cried he hit more and more til I stopped...Very difficult to deal with all of it.Always wondered why I couldnt see indications of it in my chart although maybe as Junke says that is because I am able to deal with it and stop it ruining my life now...Yes I thought that Moon Uranus indicated my mum leaving. Thank you I will read more about Ceres...funny I did a Goddess Archetype quiz the other day and my highest score was Demeter...

Thank you everyone for replying,

Anna

Anna, what you have described above definitely qualifies as sexual and physical abuse. And yes, these things can run in families--perhaps because a parent models abusive behaviour to a child, making it feel "normal" to him; but also because abused children who have had no way to process what has happened to them sometimes cope by acting out the abusive behaviour themselves on another victim, such as a younger child. I once heard psychologist Mary Pipher say that less clear-cut cases of sexual abuse/incest can be more difficult for the victim to deal with than the more blatant ones, precisely because of the ambiguity. So far as I know, the best way to address the impacts of childhood abuse is through therapy with a licensed clinical psychologist. And good for you that you are embarked on a most positive journey towards healing! Your journey does lead you to wholeness.

[AnnaViolet7]

Hi Waybread,

Yes I have had so much confusion over it as my sister was abused for years by him and I have always felt so sad for her over it and guilty for not being able to protect her that it seemed wrong for me to make a big deal in the familly about the stuff that happened to me...My mum pushed us in to going to the police although we really wernt ready to I gave a statement which my mum read but she still says that I havent been abused...I think she has shut it away for self-preservation. My mum is a Scorpio moon she had a tough time when she was younger and she has this habit of comparing her childhood saying we had it easy etc..
I realised the other day how karmic my relationship with my parents is being that my nodal axis is in the 4th/10th houses. I read on the net that I have much to learn from the parent represented in the 10th(mum)..
I am reluctant to go to a psychologist maybe I have the wrong idea but I am into natural therapies and it just feels like to me that going over it all wouldnt help me to go forward now...I do go to a homeopath and I have discussed it all with her she is very gentle and I can feel that she cares with out her saying very much also it seems so helpful to get to let it out,say how I feel and then be given a remedy to bring healing...Maybe though I will try to find out more about Clinical Psychology...i do believe there is nothing we cannot heal in the end if we work hard enough to find the healing/knowing part with in us..Also i believe these events and eventual lessons are something chosen by us for Soul growth even if we do not understand the reason at the time or even in the lifetime...

Thank you for clarifying things for me,
Anna

[waybread]

Anna, thanks very much for your positive feedback. As I child, you were not really in a position to protect your sister from a dad who strapped you with a belt when he felt angry. I hope that you are in a healing relationship with her now. In a dysfunctional familiy a child may feel that something is wrong yet not know how to address it, but it sounds as though your mother didn't support you properly, perhaps because she wanted to cover for her guilty conscience at leaving the family, and didn't know how to do this.

You sound spiritually very mature. If you believe that your soul chose your particular childhood situation, you may or may not be objectively "correct", but I believe that your approach will go a long way towards establishing foregiveness in your life. This is not the same as condoning what happened to you, but it is about choosing to free yourself from re-living the suffering. I wish you all the best for your healing journey.

[EJ53]

.....I realised the other day how karmic my relationship with my parents is being that my nodal axis is in the 4th/10th houses. I read on the net that I have much to learn from the parent represented in the 10th(mum)....

and

.....another thing which doesnt show in my chart as the Sun and Moon are in harmonious aspect to one another...It makes me wonder if my birth time may be out...

There is a school of astrology in which :-

moon = native (how events are "seen")
saturn = mother ( parent providing security)
sun = father (decision making parent)

Sometimes, this seems to apply when facts/experiences don't fit with the usual moon = mother astrological approach.

EJ:)

[AnnaViolet7]

Dear waybread,

Yes my sister and I are really close like best friends we have both said that if we dont see each other for a while we feeel a bit incomplete she is a Pisces Moon too and she also has Sun, Mercury, Venus and Mars in 7th house...we spent years not speaking when we were teenagers we both said that if we had had to really 'look' at what was going on with each other it would involve looking at our terrible childhood and be too painful but that passed and now we see it as we are ideal people to be there for one another and only we really know how it was for us then. Yes my mum has never really supported me at all she just couldnt face up to any of it and when we tried to discuss things with her she would just say 'well i know im a terrible mother...' so that would close it all down.She just didnt know how to deal with it all. I read the other day that with the Moon in the 5th house your mother sometimes acts like your child and it has been this way with my mum i have had to put my own feelings aside and help her(I am one of 6 children the youngest is 2) in all these situations she has gotten into and I have had to realise that she could not deal with the childood stuff so had to think about how she must have felt and put that first.

Blessings,
Anna

[AnnaViolet7]

Hello EJ53,

and
There is a school of astrology in which :-

moon = native (how events are "seen")
saturn = mother ( parent providing security) Hmmn Saturn in 12th so is in Neptune house with Moon in Pisces so that makes sense...Have to think more about the influence there..well thinking as I write my mum hasnt really ever given me security I havent felt i can rely on her...so in 12th house security from her could be 'hidden'
sun = father (decision making parent) well there is the Chiron conj...have to go have a look at other aspects...and see if there is one to saturn.

Sometimes, this seems to apply when facts/experiences don't fit with the usual moon = mother astrological approach.

EJ:)

Thanks EJ you are a wealth of knowledge

Anna;)

[aquarius7000]

Hi Anna,

I am a bit late in taking a look at your chart, but have detected certain aspects that I'd like to point out/ expand on.

Pluto is not well-placed in Libra, and though Pluto has to do with collective energies in astrology, these energies, however, are highly personalised in your case thru Pluto being the co-ruler of your chart, as Pluto is in a tight conj to your Asc, and your Asc is ruled by Venus - the main ruler of your chart.
Pluto in your case, thought doesn't directly oppose the stellium of planets in your 7th house, its placement in the house opposite the 7th, however, makes it come close to that. This effect might be intensified as the 7th house, in general, belongs to Libra with Venus as the ruler and in your case a)Venus is the ruler of your chart (thru Asc & Asc is conj Pluto: co-ruler), and Venus is also the ruler of the Stellium in 7: Sun/Mer/Ven/Mars/Chi). This very intense connection between Pluto and Venus in your chart would (undoubtedly) make you very appealing to the opposite sex, though I don't intend to imply anything here please.

The Ascendant (and the first house) besides having a direct bearing to our personality, has very much to do with the first part of our life - childhood & adoloscence. I have heard from very many people with Pluto on the Asc that they have faced abuse of some sort esp in their childhood. Pluto can take on/attract quite destructive/ manipulative energies esp if Plutonic energies are hindered (child would not be able to deal with intense Plutonic energies, so usually they are hindered). So Pluto on the Asc is difficult to deal with both in childhood and adoloscence. The result is that such (plutonic) children either are destructive themselves (continually get into fights and break things), or face abuse and destruction at the hands of extrinsic factors.

One last thing, with Pluto on the Asc, your personality is under a constant evolutionary pressure to, metaphorically speaking, 'die and be reborn'. If this process is blocked or avoided, tremendous pressure gets built up within oneself, which must be released at all cost. The sooner we understand our Plutonic energies, and since the Asc is associated with the 1st half of our life (with age, we tend to live out more our Sun- our real-self), the sooner we will have dealt with the Plutonic lesson and can get on much better with our lives.

Sun, as EJ53 mentioned, is often associated in astrology with the father, just like some astrologers also associate Saturn or 10th H also with the father. Consequently, all these three are associated with male figures, just like Mars is too.
Now in your chart, all of these Sun, Sat, Mars, as well as 10th H are directly aspected by the North Node (consequently also by the s-Node) and the N-Node itself is placed in the 10th house, thereby putting the S-Node in the 4th (parental home, roots). Now the Nodes are said to be symbolic of Karma/ our past lives, in astrology, and I think this is very true. One would, therefore, be inclined to deduce that there is a (karma) package in connection with your father that you have brought along and have (had) to deal with in this life.
For more on Nodes and Karma check out: http://karma.astrology.com/nodesmaritha.html

IC/4th House in Capricorn: puts Saturn on the cusp. Saturn too is difficult to deal with in the young age (Saturn is the planet of the aged), and 4-H in Capricorn might make the native deal with some severity/ limitations/ fear/ frustrations/ authority issues, which could have to do with our (parental) family. Saturn is also called the karmic teacher and makes us learn lessons the hard way. Saturn is also connected with both the father and authority figures in genral (father=authority figure in the parental home). So this point can also be taken as an indication to the issue of abuse (of some sort) in your case.

However, the real problems belong now to the past, so perhaps you should let bygones be bygones, and concentrate on your future with new and positive energies- (let these positive energies bear the Pluto intensity ;))

Sorry as to the length of my post:o

Hope to have been of some help
:)aquarius7000

[Nate of the 12th]

Sun conj Mars often shows the native had sexual experiences early on (I have it too). I've already seen a sexual abuse or two with only the sun conj mars, and Tauruses like us often coalesce around crystallised frustrations. Pluto on Ascendant shows the native's life had/has some "explosive" experiences. Reading your post I was expecting a severe Uranus influence and surely enough the moon is square Uranus, planet of deep dissociative trauma, especially on the moon. I have a female cousin that had a violent childhood (by father actually) and she has this aspect too. It is a deceptively clean chart, but it packs a punch.

[AnnaViolet7]

Hi aquarius7000,

Thank you for all the interesting points you make...

Hi Anna,

I am a bit late in taking a look at your chart, but have detected certain aspects that I'd like to point out/ expand on.

Pluto is not well-placed in Libra, I guess i can see why as Libra is the next sign on from Pluto's ruler...Can you expand on this? V.interesting..and though Pluto has to do with collective energies in astrology, these energies, however, are highly personalised in your case thru Pluto being the co-ruler of your chart, as Pluto is in a tight conj to your Asc, and your Asc is ruled by Venus - the main ruler of your chart. Ah thats really interesting I didnt know Pluto is the co-ruler of my chart..I am quite an intense person!
Pluto in your case, thought doesn't directly oppose the stellium of planets in your 7th house, its placement in the house opposite the 7th, however, makes it come close to that. This effect might be intensified as the 7th house, in general, belongs to Libra with Venus as the ruler and in your case a)Venus is the ruler of your chart (thru Asc & Asc is conj Pluto: co-ruler), and Venus is also the ruler of the Stellium in 7: Sun/Mer/Ven/Mars/Chi). This very intense connection between Pluto and Venus in your chart would (undoubtedly) make you very appealing to the opposite sex, though I don't intend to imply anything here please.

The Ascendant (and the first house) besides having a direct bearing to our personality, has very much to do with the first part of our life - childhood & adoloscence. I have heard from very many people with Pluto on the Asc that they have faced abuse of some sort esp in their childhood. Pluto can take on/attract quite destructive/ manipulative energies esp if Plutonic energies are hindered (child would not be able to deal with intense Plutonic energies, so usually they are hindered). So Pluto on the Asc is difficult to deal with both in childhood and adoloscence. The result is that such (plutonic) children either are destructive themselves (continually get into fights and break things), or face abuse and destruction at the hands of extrinsic factors.
That all makes sense..I guess those energies have to be played out in some way..
One last thing, with Pluto on the Asc, your personality is under a constant evolutionary pressure to, metaphorically speaking, 'die and be reborn'. If this process is blocked or avoided, tremendous pressure gets built up within oneself, which must be released at all cost. The sooner we understand our Plutonic energies, and since the Asc is associated with the 1st half of our life (with age, we tend to live out more our Sun- our real-self), the sooner we will have dealt with the Plutonic lesson and can get on much better with our lives.
Absolutely I am quite in tune with the need for transformation...I really embrace it now..I read this article it was about letting go and it asked 'how comfortable are you in getting rid of material things?' for me I absolutly love getting rid of the old and unnecessary and making space for the new on every level. I have done so much work on myself at the time when Saturn went into Virgo something in me just went this is the time to heal from the past and began seeing a homeopath working thru everything and have also had spritual healing and deep acting flower remedies..I have changed so much sometimes I feel different even over one day I will have such intense realisations...
I am looking forward to acting out the Sun side of me!!
Sun, as EJ53 mentioned, is often associated in astrology with the father, just like some astrologers also associate Saturn or 10th H also with the father. Consequently, all these three are associated with male figures, just like Mars is too.
Now in your chart, all of these Sun, Sat, Mars, as well as 10th H are directly aspected by the North Node (consequently also by the s-Node) and the N-Node itself is placed in the 10th house, thereby putting the S-Node in the 4th (parental home, roots). Now the Nodes are said to be symbolic of Karma/ our past lives, in astrology, and I think this is very true. One would, therefore, be inclined to deduce that there is a (karma) package in connection with your father that you have brought along and have (had) to deal with in this life.
For more on Nodes and Karma check out: http://karma.astrology.com/nodesmaritha.html
Absolutly agree..thank you that is interesting reading.

IC/4th House in Capricorn: puts Saturn on the cusp. Saturn too is difficult to deal with in the young age (Saturn is the planet of the aged), and 4-H in Capricorn might make the native deal with some severity/ limitations/ fear/ frustrations/ authority issues, which could have to do with our (parental) family. Saturn is also called the karmic teacher and makes us learn lessons the hard way. Saturn is also connected with both the father and authority figures in genral (father=authority figure in the parental home). So this point can also be taken as an indication to the issue of abuse (of some sort) in your case.

Ah that all makes sense...I thought having Cap in the 4th was very apt for my childhood was so controlled and full of fear.

However, the real problems belong now to the past, so perhaps you should let bygones be bygones, and concentrate on your future with new and positive energies- (let these positive energies bear the Pluto intensity ;))

I agree!!!! I think this mercury rx brought up all this stuff again for some reason but only so I could put it to rest. I do feel like although all of this stuff has happened i have stopped it from ruining my life.I feel like a strong person with much to give...Heee hee the Pluto intensity!! My ex!boyfriend said to me once 'god I wish you'd stop being so intense all the time' wonder why that relationship didnt work out!!

Sorry as to the length of my post:o
Not at all thank you I really appreciate all of your insights..
Hope to have been of some help
:)aquarius7000

Thank you, you really have and you have also shown me more about how to look at a chart ;)

Onwards and Upwards,

Anna :)

[AnnaViolet7]

Hi Nate of the 12th,

Sun conj Mars often shows the native had sexual experiences early on (I have it too). I've already seen a sexual abuse or two with only the sun conj mars,Really I never knew that was an indication. and Tauruses like us often coalesce around crystallised frustrations.Interesting, can you expand on that? Pluto on Ascendant shows the native's life had/has some "explosive" experiences.Definatly have had so many difficult experiences even aside from all the childhood stuff but now it is all in the past.. Reading your post I was expecting a severe Uranus influence and surely enough the moon is square Uranus, planet of deep dissociative trauma, especially on the moon. I have a female cousin that had a violent childhood (by father actually) and she has this aspect too. It is a deceptively clean chart, but it packs a punch.

That would make sense about the Uranus/moon square..when I first noticed that i thought that indicated the separation from my mum but I can see how that could describe all of the trauma...Yes the fact that my chart seems pretty easy makes me think more about the nature of aspects..an Astrologer told me that you should just think of any aspect as that the two planets are talking to one another rather than getting hung up on the actual aspect they make...Also I have seen a conjunction described as a stressful aspect...

Someone on here mentioned I have Ceres right on the midheaven I did a search about Ceres on the net and found this which seems very apt
www.btinternet.com/~seamaid/ceres.htm (http://www.btinternet.com/~seamaid/ceres.htm) Also noticed that Ceres is square Pluto..

Thanks v.much,

Anna:)

[Nate of the 12th]

Hi AnnaViolet7

Sun conj mars is not necessarily an indication of abuse, but it often shows early sexual experiences. This can build up the case with other indications, however I am not sure that one can know for sure by a chart, so I do not usually focus on delineating this and instead discuss the psychological influence of the aspects.

There seems to be more often than not unresolved frustrations in the Taurus personality. We usually do not forget early hurts, it stays in the back of our mind. These hurts and frustrations may be more or less significant according to the quality of the chart. Taurus can help advance the consciousness of what happened, but earthy perceptions can be difficult to restructure and it can instead lead to negativity and difficulty in forgiving. Thankfully, you have a good moon, and the packed 7th house makes you more open to outside help.

Also, I do not see the conjunction as necessarily as a stressfull aspect, although there are definitely problematic conjunctions. Some planets just work better together than others.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

www.btinternet.com/~seamaid/ceres.htm (http://www.btinternet.com/%7Eseamaid/ceres.htm)

This is in no way conducive to the conversation, but I just wanted to point out that the glyph of Scorpio is backwards on this website...I'd take the information on this website with an extra-super grain of salt if they can't even take the 1.7 seconds necessary to double-check their glyph arrangement...

[aquarius7000]

Pluto is not well-placed in Libra, I guess i can see why as Libra is the next sign on from Pluto's ruler...Can you expand on this? V.interesting..To put this briefly, Pluto or rather Scorpio (it's sign) is everything Libra isn't. As an e.g. Scorpio is the sign for intense interpersonal relationships, and Pluto, probes underneath surfaces to find reality. Now Libra is all about balance, harmony and diplomacy, and Libra, in the negative, is associated with superficiality, vacillation and hypocrisy, whereas with Scorpions nothing is skin-deep; it's all about focus, depth and consummation.